Economic meltdown - more "order out of chaos" from you know who?

[taffboy gwyrdd]

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=estulin&emb=0&aq=f#

This is another Estulin vid, he describes Bildeberg as a "systemic conspiracy". The continuing blindspot the left has on this matter weirds me out a bit. Someone said upthread (rightly) that the fact that factions on the right are on to B.berg puts the left of. That to me is not a coherent reason in itself for rejecting the analysis out of hand.

Rightists often dont like the implications of the end of the nation state, but the nation state does happen to be very much on the wane so the analysis holds up in that regard.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Yeah, but the important difference with the Italian stuff is that it was documented by courts of law. Wild speculation is not your friend when you're dealing with this sort of stuff. There are plenty of loonies purveying nonsense who act as camoflage for any actual functioning conspiracies.

The Italian stuff is documented. So is Operation Paperclip, bankers profiting from both sides of war and setting up wars and a host of elite misdemenours.

The only question then is "coincidence" or "conspiracy"?

While it could be a combination, many on the left say go for the former saying it is just capitalism doing as capitalism does. But to think that members of elite dont at least try to orchestrate things is highly naive.

Then the left will say "ah yes, but they screw up" but they cant be screwing up all the time and just because a percieved objective X seems to screw up doesnt mean other objectives cant be fulfilled.

For example, plenty about Iraq screwed up but the oil has been sewn up now, the country divided, massive US bases and huge profits for the warmongers. These will have ticked a few boxes on someones list for sure.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

I know this is 3 post mentalism, but away from Bildeberg - I dont see how anyone could call Naomi Wolfe a tinfoil hat loon.

The closing down of democracy and civil liberties is a huge threat. Does this happen by chance? perhaps so but not so likely given that they teach how to do it at The School Of The Americas / Western Hemisphere Institute where the US trains its proteges in terror and tyranny. Whatever, we need to stand up against this menace now instead of infighting.

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=estulin&emb=0&aq=f#q=naomi wolfe end of america&emb=0

 

[goebfwai]

The decisions that were made about which US based financial institutions would be saved and which would not was certainly no accident. Fannie May and Freddie Mac, both with their operations predominantly limited to the US, saved. Lehman's, world's 2nd biggest investment bank with a tangled, cloudy and gargantuan web of financial trading all around the world, not saved. I'm no economics or financial expert, but from what I've seen and heard, the collapse of Lehman's seems to have caused more damage to other countries than it did to America. It wasn't saved, it collapsed, owing a lot of money to other countries and other banks around the world, and it brought other banks and economies to their knees, affecting them more than it did the US. It's a very selfish form of national protectionism.

 

[Badgers]

I am shocked

 

[TomPaine]

Estulin is the grandson of a KGB colonel responsible for counter-intelligence in 1950's, an his father was a dissident who was throw our of Russia in the 1980s. From reading his book he has a good web of contacts through his families links to Russian and European intelligence agencies, so it makes interesting reading, especially as he reproduces the documents he has been handed in his book.

Obviously you can't take everything at face value (such is the murky world of intelligence agencies) and there is some speculation based upon the facts, but it makes an interesting read non the less.

TomPaine

 

[Darios]

The decisions that were made about which US based financial institutions would be saved and which would not was certainly no accident. Fannie May and Freddie Mac, both with their operations predominantly limited to the US, saved.

AP:

Freddie Mac secretly paid a Republican consulting firm $2 million to kill legislation that would have regulated and trimmed the mortgage finance giant and its sister company, Fannie Mae, three years before the government took control to prevent their collapse.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

A few stories from the last few days showing that at the least, this whole episode is a looting exercise. Was it planned? who knows, but members of the senate were threatened with martial law if they didnt pass the bail out bill.

Take your pick for links:

http://tinyurl.com/5p7gv9

The "bailout" has no oversight. It is way more than the $700 bn dollars quoted to. "bail out" - no. "scam out" - yes.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/22/dirty-secret-of-the-bailo_n_128294.html

Quote from the bill:

Decisions by the Secretary pursuant to the authority of this Act are non-reviewable and committed to agency discretion, and may not be reviewed by any court of law or any administrative agency.

Goldman Sachs have said they'll be handing out loads of the wonga straight to employees.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/wor...LLION-salary-bonus-package--6bn-bail-out.html

JP Morgan also admit they wont be using the money for intended purpose.

Note Tony "Cunt" Blair now works for these crooks.

http://jonathanturley.org/2008/10/2...to-make-new-loans-but-to-buy-other-companies/

And finally for now, From the latest Private Eye:

Happy days are here again at nationalised Northern Rock.

Following last weeks revelation that chief exec. Gary Hoffman could get a £420,000 bonus on top of his £700,000 salary, the Eye learns that sales direcotrs are planning a Christmas jamboree in London for seior colleagues taking in serveral "golf days" and a week-long stay at the Hempel Hotel for about 10 directors and assistant directors

Now, correct me if Im wrong but didnt Darling swear blind there would be no such bonuses this year? (this financial year - i.e not even half a year)

Northern Rock are still at the top of repossession tables.

And I havent even mentioned the RBS bonuses.

This is a co-ordinated mass looting and it stinks. I wouldnt be suprised if aspects of it were coldly calculated.

 

[darkfibre]

Recent academic paper on 'Forensic Economics': http://www.iies.su.se/~ekaplan/coups.pdf

Dube, Kaplan, and Naidu examine how the stock market reacted to events that no Wall Street trader should have known about: top-secret meetings of the coup-plotting cabals at CIA headquarters and presidential approvals of CIA-organized invasions.

http://www.slate.com/id/2203121/pagenum/all/

 

[yield]

A few stories from the last few days showing that at the least, this whole episode is a looting exercise. Was it planned? who knows, but members of the senate were threatened with martial law if they didn't pass the bail out bill.

Congressional martial law that is.

Yes it is a looting exercise though.

...

Thanks for the link darkfibre. For God, Country and Coca-Cola is another good book to read on corporate greed.

Other countries are of course guilty of the same.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Congressional martial law that is.

Hmm..does that just mean congress would be over-ridden against the constitution? (the constitution is in shred thanks to the traitors anyway)

The people like Barry Sherman who reported this were saying the threat was that for every day without a bailout the Dow would lose 1,000 points and there could be martial law. There are no specifics I am aware of but a batalliion has been brought home from Iraq for potential use on the US streets and perhaps the threat was that there would be so much chaos that martial law would be "neccessary" i.e profits for Blackwater and Co. would be necccessary and the US people should be punished for the banker masters not being appeased.

 

[butchersapron]

...and taffboy buys yet another commodity 'the traitors'...

 

[goebfwai]

Great article/link, thanks darkfire.

People in the know acting on inside knowledge and leaking it out to a few friends can have a powerful effect on markets. It is a butterfly effect. Look at the panic of mass-selling on the stock-market, capital flight etc that we have seen the past month. It's been a fear driven market. It's like billions of little vortexes coalescing to form a kick-ass financial storm. But the waves calm down and the storm disipates. Even a category 5 hurricane loses it's strength eventually, and people pick themselves up and starting cleaning up and re-building.

 

[RhymnRzn]

The same day I quit my job at the convenience shop I had been working for, that initial 777 plunge hit. Since then constantly having to mind keeping employment in the scope (I guess lest the hands near me fail by moneth or two, or better yet, lest I get sold down the river by hasty, binding, and unforgiving policies): I finally got another job that hires on the spot. And sure enough, gas prices are like a buck-ninety now (about the only token for some), and not so much as a token of words is given about help for poor workers who provide for themselves and others; thus far we are not afforded the liberty nor the release from debts. No one seems to want to preach that sermon, for some reason: maybe they just really enjoy to be served.

I think this presses towards the sermon the workman wants to hear: well atleast these guys know what the Holy Bible says.
The Credit Crunch
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?sid=1031081724427

 

[darkfibre]

The Credit Crunch
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?sid=1031081724427

Cheers - I've normally got a total aversion to anything 'sermony', but that was actually pretty bloody good.

 

[boskysquelch]

World Service on Now... "it's the rise of the Rest" The Forum.... Podcast out later I guess

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

...and taffboy buys yet another commodity 'the traitors'...

LOL - Bought it from who? The dictionary? It describes a traitor as one who "betrays" others or the country.

The US government has demonstrably betrayed people and constitution in a long list of ways going back to the stolen election of 2000.

Why would you focus more on 1 word from a long and detailed post with plenty of links than the case made in that post that this is a systematic looting of resources by the elite?

Perhaps I can buy even more time for you by calling the Bush/Cheney gang a "coup faction"

 

[butchersapron]

Do leave off, you're presenting basic mainstream reports but putting in "the traitors" and "order out of chaos" to suggest that they support your loon agenda.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Do leave off, you're presenting basic mainstream reports but putting in "the traitors" and "order out of chaos" to suggest that they support your loon agenda.

Im presenting mainstream reports to show there is a looting going on. "traitors" happens to be an accurate technical description.

I dont know if it is order out of chaos or how planned it is, that is the basis question of thread with a question mark thrown in for good measure.

Are you avoiding these issues just so you can slag me off for a "loon agenda"?
by microscoping one word in a long post?

Do you think this a looting job or would you like to put in a case in defence of the bankers?

 

[butchersapron]

Im presenting mainstream reports to show there is a looting going on. "traitors" happens to be an accurate technical description.

I dont know if it is order out of chaos or how planned it is, that is the basis question of thread with a question mark thrown in for good measure.

Are you avoiding these issues just so you can slag me off for a "loon agenda"?
by microscoping one word in a long post?

Do you think this a looting job or would you like to put in a case in defence of the bankers?

It happens to be a term used by loons as does "order out of chaos", i don't mind, but i'd like some honesty with it. The crowbarring of the two agendas is damaging so, yes, i'm looking for and highlighting instances of it. You seem to be the person doing it most on here.

 

[butchersapron]

In fact, just stop reading that loon shit and read some stuff from here:

http://sites.google.com/site/radicalperspectivesonthecrisis/

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

In fact, just stop reading that loon shit and read some stuff from here:

http://sites.google.com/site/radicalperspectivesonthecrisis/

What loon shit? The stuff you just described as mainstream?

I will read your link, perhaps because Im more capable of engaging with both sides of a debate than you are.

 

[butchersapron]

What loon shit? The stuff you just described as mainstream?

I will read your link, perhaps because Im more capable of engaging with both sides of a debate than you are.

What loon shit? The loon shit that leads you to connect the current crisis with 'order out of chaos' and 'the traitors' - not the mainstream stuff. That's th stuff that you should stop reading.

 

[butchersapron]

And there's no 'two sides', the loon stuff you're drowning in is simply wrong.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Well Butchers, thanks for that. It does look useful. Lots of people would call you a "loon" for plugging so much Marxism. I aint one of them.

Some of the articles dont pull up right, but a lot of them seem to allude to the fact that we are being ripped off wholesale by the elite in a system that has more than the air of scam about it.


Whereas in contrast I have been advancing the idea that there is a system run to the benefit of an elite which rips us off in a scam like fashion.

Some contrast. no wonder you call me a "loon".

You are right, there are no 2 sides. Just one person calling another "loon" with no special substantiation for doing so.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

What loon shit? The loon shit that leads you to connect the current crisis with 'order out of chaos' and 'the traitors' - not the mainstream stuff. That's th stuff that you should stop reading.

That would be the "loon" dictionary in terms of "traitors". "Order out of chaos" is, as I have already stated, a question posed not an established opinion on my part.

 

[butchersapron]

And?

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

And?

You dismiss stuff as "mainstream" when it suits then you dismiss as "loon" a perfectly reasonable use of a single word as described by the dictionary.

You post links to stuff which I probably agree with and which back up my opinions, and carry on calling me a "loon".

You appear to have a prejudice against the idea that the elite might co-ordinate their looting. The bailout bill alone shows that prejudice is probably misplaced. Why did they write no oversight into the bill?

 

[butchersapron]

I've suggestd that you're attempting to make your 'order out of chaos' and 'the traitors' loon-motifs' lokk like they have some credibility through the use of serious research yes.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

I've suggestd that you're attempting to make your 'order out of chaos' and 'the traitors' loon-motifs' lokk like they have some credibility through the use of serious research yes.

Again, "traitors" means those who betray their country. That is not a loon motif. It is a plain as your nose fact.

As for "order out of chaos" - in this context that would mean some degree of the crisis being engineered to the elites benefit. There is plenty of evidence towards that, including the terms of the bail-out bill and banks behaviour since, that you have not spoken to.

Feel free to discuss the issues by all means, but dont go out on a limb or anything if youd rather hurl reactionary and misplaced insults.