Economic democracy: the need for a vision

[Carousel]

Butchers, I don't assume you cling to the same positions forever. As for the politics-of-the-elite, I’m highly suspicious they advocate laissez-faire capitalism and certainly not “free markets”, not even cranks like John Redwood. I doubt they even pretend to advocate it. Alan Sugar and the multi millionaires on the Dragon’s Den don’t. So who are you talking about specifically, and what do they say?

Aside from that, how the elite shape belief is matter of social proof. Think about it like this, if you’re in the street and some fat smelly type comes up to you gives you a sneer, you don’t give a toss do you? Now imagine how you’d feel if it was your boss or a customer. You’d care, not because you like them necessarily, but because they impact your survival and replication value. It’s a matter of celebrity endorsement. Now granted, we can be led to do some dumb shit by the mini-personality cults we build in our heads, but there’s no reason to believe we’ll make better decisions when left to our own devices. At least these jokers keep food and oil coming into the country, which is more than can be said for your “positions”.

No-one else has the same problem making the distinction between what happens in the sporting and entertainment industries and the bread and butter facts of their own lives. Any analogy only exists in the rarified world of theoretical market advocacy you've just denied yourself.

But comrade, we're all in the entertainment industry. The distinction is really between those you trust, that is to say celebrities and experts on the TV, radio and press and those whose advice you discount, namely your family, friends and other losers desperate enough to remain in your real social circle.

 

[butchersapron]

Butchers, I don't assume you cling to the same positions forever. As for the politics-of-the-elite, I’m highly suspicious they advocate laissez-faire capitalism and certainly not “free markets”, not even cranks like John Redwood. I doubt they even pretend to advocate it. Alan Sugar and the multi millionaires on the Dragon’s Den don’t. So who are you talking about specifically, and what do they say?

Aside from that, how the elite shape belief is matter of social proof. Think about it like this, if you’re in the street and some fat smelly type comes up to you gives you a sneer, you don’t give a toss do you? Now imagine how you’d feel if it was your boss or a customer. You’d care, not because you like them necessarily, but because they impact your survival and replication value. It’s a matter of celebrity endorsement. Now granted, we can be lead to do some dumb shit by the mini-personality cults we build in our heads, but there’s no reason to believe we’ll make better decisions when left to our own devices. At least these jokers keep food and oil coming into the country, which is more than can be said for your “positions”.

You're missing the point here, the argument is that arguments for neo-liberalism and LF helped create the context within which even a planned capitalism based on a practial rejection of the clamed tenets could work due to the wisdespread assumption of their base positions.

And can you make your mind up which argument you want to throw your feet-up argument at, becauee, you're bit over the place at the minute. One minute we all make these myths up, the next no one does, they don't exist.

Your second para, bizzarely seems to emphasise this rather than undercutting it.

Feet on the ground son, feet on the ground

 

[The39thStep]

Aside from the fact that no document unless written by Carousel would get the Carousel approvement stamp ( and even then he would end up either arguing with himself or copping off with himself) does anyone else find ResistanceMP3s comments totally bizarre?

 

[butchersapron]

Aside from the fact that no document unless written by Carousel would get the Carousel approvement stamp ( and even then he would end up either arguing with himself or copping off with himself) does anyone else find ResistanceMP3s comments totally bizarre?

Serioulsy, best left to himself, lest we have the perfect storm.

 

[JimW]

But comrade, we're all in the entertainment industry. The distinction is really between those you trust, that is to say celebrities and experts on the TV, radio and press and those whose advice you discount, namely your family, friends and other losers desperate enough to remain in your real social circle.

You must be hanging about with a very odd crowd. Since I can't legislate for who you know or meet, how about that half of the Internet is forums for people looking for advice off other non-experts like themselves who've actually used some product, service or whatever, because they are wary of being sold a pup or lied to?

 

[Spion]

You only need to look at the custom and practise of bolshevik adherents since 1917 to have the answer to that.

You're talking shite, or at least spreading it with a very wide brush. Trotsky spent decades fighting for the workers of the USSR to take control of the means of production and run them democratically and got an ice pick in the head for so doing.

 

[butchersapron]

...and we're back on familiar safe sterile ground. Oh wow, go trotsky! What a dep analysis.

 

[Random]

Aside from the fact that no document unless written by Carousel would get the Carousel approvement stamp ( and even then he would end up either arguing with himself or copping off with himself) does anyone else find ResistanceMP3s comments totally bizarre?

It only makes sense in the context of a recent running argument RMP3 has been having with himself the last few weeks.

Anyway - hardened SWP members and hardened piss takers like phildwyer and carousel aren't exactly the main audience for this policy piece...

Myself I think it is important to have a vision - and point out that the IWCA is a bit more ambitious than just 'localism' as some have said.

The point with neo-liberalism is surely that it articulated the interests of a section of the rich/corporate class that was already powerful and already in motion. So for me the question is 'what levers of power do the rest of us have?'

I used to think the answer was direct action, and lots of it - but without any kind of community base it just ends up with a small group of professional activists engaging in increasingly ritualised activity. If you talk to the orthodox left they will say it's all about the workplace - but workplace power is at a low ebb. Likewise exercising power at the community level has not proven to be an easy task.

So myself I'm still waiting for a glimmer of an inkling of an idea to the questio I've posed.

 

[Carousel]

You're missing the point here, the argument is that arguments for neo-liberalism and LF helped create the context within which even a planned capitalism based on a practial rejection of the clamed tenets could work due to the wisdespread assumption of their base positions.

I did miss this point of yours. I wouldn't contend with it. Let me ask, what is this fact going to do for you? Are you seriously suggesting that whatever it is you want can be brought about by this argument? The whole working class could share your opinion tomorrow at it would make not a jot of difference, they’ll go and press the same buttons in the same order as ever. We, generally, do not work at the level of belief built though the understanding of reality, but at the level of beliefs built around our identity. If you identify with the idea of a reckless stuntman, like Evil Knevil, or admire and adore the presenters of Top Gear to the extent your prepared to pay the tax to keep the likes of Clarkson in cars to push over cliffs or whatever, you’re a lot less likely to get uptight about the “attacks” on the NHS than somebody whose been brought up to revere mediocrity and ponder what’s so bad about being a loser.

So for me the question is 'what levers of power do the rest of us have?'

None. Power comes from you demonstrating what you'll do with it.

 

[Spion]

...and we're back on familiar safe sterile ground. Oh wow, go trotsky! What a dep analysis.

You posted this shit, so why get pissy when it gets challenged?

2. 2 conceptions of left-wing: a)state controlled top down, managerial - streching from bolsheviks to labour and the fabians, typical of m/c dominated groups and

 

[Random]

You posted this shit, so why get pissy when it gets challenged?

Do you get cross any time someone criticises the bolsheviks? tbh I expected better of you, seeing as you're not in the SWP as far as I know.

What about the wider point - are you saying that there's no part of the left's failure that can be explained by a common perception that the far left represent a top-down approach, or 'Stalinist' methods?

 

[butchersapron]

I couldn't care less if it's challenged or not spion, i was merely laughing at what brought you out of the woodwork whilst ignoring everything else - a brilliant demonstration of the lefts obsession with the left - and the great depth of your reply to what hurt you so, of course.

And now we'll all talk about the bolsheiviks agian.

 

[Carousel]

how about that half of the Internet is forums for people looking for advice off other non-experts like themselves who've actually used some product, service or whatever, because they are wary of being sold a pup or lied to?

No. Because they're lonely.

 

[Spion]

Do you get cross any time someone criticises the bolsheviks? tbh I expected better of you, seeing as you're not in the SWP as far as I know.

If someone posts bullshit then it is likely to get called, isn't it? If you've something to say to the issue, say it, instead weighing in like Butch's bitch

What about the wider point - are you saying that there's no part of the left's failure that can be explained by a common perception that the far left represent a top-down approach, or 'Stalinist' methods?

I hear constant complaints about 'the left's' Stalinist methods. People are talking about it all the time in the street, pubs etc.

Actually, back in the real world I think people see an absence of meaningful results from 'the left', rather than positively identifying a faulty 'top down' approach

 

[Spion]

I couldn't care less if it's challenged or not spion, i was merely laughing at what brought you out of the woodwork whilst ignoring everything else - a brilliant demonstration of the lefts obsession with the left -

Please, O Great Leader, please tell us what exactly we must say in this discussion, the subject areas that we should talk of and those we should not. I accept I have erred and await your instructions.

 

[butchersapron]

That's right they totally divorce the lack of results and their own engagment from top-down methods of organisation - that's almost an historical constant isn't it?

 

[Carousel]

That and the fact they don’t identify with the central ideology, in terms of values and beliefs, to anything like the degree of lefties. And not because they’ve been brainwashed or deceived by arguments for the free market either, but because of who they are. Their actual personalities and sense of identity.

 

[butchersapron]

Please, O Great Leader, please tell us what exactly we must say in this discussion, the subject areas that we should talk of and those we should not. I accept I have erred and await your instructions.

If you want to play 1917, play bolsheviks on thread about getting beyond that, then i think that's telling enough in itself. You need say no more.

 

[Random]

If someone posts bullshit then it is likely to get called, isn't it? If you've something to say to the issue, say it, instead weighing in like Butch's bitch

Don't say things like that, you'll make RMP3 get a semi.

Actually, back in the real world I think people see an absence of meaningful results from 'the left', rather than positively identifying a faulty 'top down' approach

Which brings me back to my earlier point about powerlessness. Myself I think the left has contributed to this present state of lack of leverage by wasting what organisation it has had in the pursuit of various pointless goals or doctrinaire squabbles. Earlier you said that we needed thousands of activists working away seriously in communities - what sort of minimum programme do you think could unite such people?

 

[Carousel]

Random, it's not their powerlessness, it's their values. There is no minimum programme, most people are unwilling (perhaps even incapable) of evaluating, let alone designing, social policy. Besides, as soon as they maintain our imports of food and fuel they’ll arrive at the same social policy we have now. Or do you imagine it’s been put together by the elite just to be obtuse?

You could try bread and circuses I suppose.

 

[Random]

Many thanks for replying to me Cariousel, but as I've said earlier I'm not interested in your views on this, cheers

 

[danny la rouge]

Many thanks for replying to me Cariousel, but as I've said earlier I'm not interested in your views on this, cheers

 

[Spion]

Which brings me back to my earlier point about powerlessness. Myself I think the left has contributed to this present state of lack of leverage by wasting what organisation it has had in the pursuit of various pointless goals or doctrinaire squabbles.

Well, I'd agree that 'the left' (no idea how you define that tho) has contributed to the present state of affairs. But I'd place 'doctrinaire squabbles' way down the list as a contributory factor, way behind bigger influences such as changes globally with ref to the Stalinist states and the discrediting of 'communism' as well as country specific defeats of organised labour and the right-wing flight of reformist socialism.

What you call 'doctrinaire squabbles' have always taken place and always will. Most people don't know they exist

Earlier you said that we needed thousands of activists working away seriously in communities - what sort of minimum programme do you think could unite such people?

You don't want much do you?

Jobs for all - strike and occupy to stop job losses
Create jobs and decent housing for all with a huge programme of public works to make our towns and cities fit to live in
Create organisations of workers and community control to oversee economic life
How to pay for all this? Tax big business to provide what the mass of people need. If they refuse, bring those businesses into public ownership

Those are the kind of principles I start from. How to 'unite' people around them is a case of taking such principles and applying them to what people are already concerned about

 

[cogg]

You're talking shite, or at least spreading it with a very wide brush. Trotsky spent decades fighting for the workers of the USSR to take control of the means of production and run them democratically and got an ice pick in the head for so doing.

I thought this was satire until I read the rest of your posts. Interesting you pick out a throwaway quote as your main bone of contention. I'll leave you worrying away with it.

"I used to think the answer was direct action, and lots of it - but without any kind of community base it just ends up with a small group of professional activists engaging in increasingly ritualised activity. If you talk to the orthodox left they will say it's all about the workplace - but workplace power is at a low ebb. Likewise exercising power at the community level has not proven to be an easy task."
On Random's points above, I think we need a combination of everything. Wherever the working class are, that's where those who want to pursue a goal of pursuing independent working class rule have to be.
You can't rule anything out.

 

[Carousel]

Yeah well Random, typically for "social activists" or whatever, your question will remain unanswered because you’ll never get the answer you want. You cling to a set of fixed beliefs as if your life depended on them. It doesn’t. Indeed, that may be why you continually ask the same questions over and over, you enjoy pricking your own armour.

 

[Spion]

Interesting you pick out a throwaway quote as your main bone of contention.

I got as far as Butch's summary. I don't tend to give much credibility to information that gets the basics so wrong

 

[butchersapron]

1917 it is. Forever.

 

[Random]

You don't want much do you?

I have faith in the creativity of the class, Spion.

Jobs for all - strike and occupy to stop job losses
Create jobs and decent housing for all with a huge programme of public works to make our towns and cities fit to live in
Create organisations of workers and community control to oversee economic life
How to pay for all this? Tax big business to provide what the mass of people need. If they refuse, bring those businesses into public ownership

Those are the kind of principles I start from. How to 'unite' people around them is a case of taking such principles and applying them to what people are already concerned about

Now I agree with your points, and would happily get involved in something based on that - but for me the crucial thing is not how we 'apply the principles to what people are concerned about' but rather how activists engage with the general public and from that build up their principles. And it's that which i think still separates the traditional left from what the IWCA is trying to do.

At base I think the left was once of the class, and from the class. Now it has only marginal contract with working class life - making any kind of new start has to be based on reversing this problem and instead make sure that any political formation is instead immersed in working class reality.

 

[Spion]

That's it Butch. Stay under your rock spitting out your bile. It's the safest place for you.

 

[Random]

On Random's points above, I think we need a combination of everything. Wherever the working class are, that's where those who want to pursue a goal of pursuing independent working class rule have to be.
You can't rule anything out.

That's fair enough, but it still leaves us not really knowing what to focus on, tactically, and not knowing what will get us out of this impasse, strategically. Waiting for working class activity to show the way, I suppose, which is better than trying to tell people that your 100 year old threories are the way to go, which is what the trad left tend to do.