Eco friendly travel. In all honesty, would you do it?

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

I'd love to, but there's no way I could afford it really. It's a lot of money, and the article talks about getting there but not getting back, which doubles time and expenses. It's an issue I'm wrestling with a lot recently (partly because I'm supposedly writing a dissertation on it) because I do love travelling but find it very hard to justify. One thing that came up quite a bit on the other thread (about flights to Edinburgh) is that a lot of people said something along the lines of: 'I'd never fly within Britain, but obviously if I was going long haul I'd have to fly.' Even trying to argue that short haul flights are more damaging (they might be per mile, but they plainly aren't overall.) It just doesn't wash at all. I think if you accept that the environment is important you have to bite the bullet (very reluctantly in my case) and just NOT GO to places like Thailand.

 

[mauvais]

If I get chance to go to France again, I won't be flying, I don't think. It's much more attractive to fly when you live up north (Manchester) compared to living in the South East, yet I think in future I'll get the train to London then the Eurostar. Costs more and takes longer but it seems like something I ought to do.

 

[Yossarian]

I'd love to, but there's no way I could afford it really. It's a lot of money, and the article talks about getting there but not getting back, which doubles time and expenses. It's an issue I'm wrestling with a lot recently (partly because I'm supposedly writing a dissertation on it) because I do love travelling but find it very hard to justify. One thing that came up quite a bit on the other thread (about flights to Edinburgh) is that a lot of people said something along the lines of: 'I'd never fly within Britain, but obviously if I was going long haul I'd have to fly.' Even trying to argue that short haul flights are more damaging (they might be per mile, but they plainly aren't overall.) It just doesn't wash at all. I think if you accept that the environment is important you have to bite the bullet (very reluctantly in my case) and just NOT GO to places like Thailand.

Good post and I’m inclined to agree – on that other thread chico enrico asked about flights to Edinburgh and got treated like he was George Bush by people who must be responsible for vast amounts of emissions through their recreational flying, and here this Guardian woman has travelled thousands of miles for a holiday, creating hundreds of tons of emissions, equivalent to (at a guess) a return flight to Eastern Europe, a couple of thousand school runs in a 4x4, or the annual emissions of a good-sized African village – there’s nothing very eco-friendly about that, even before you figure that she probably flew back.

Not going anywhere is the truly eco-friendly option, and I don’t think there’s many of us prepared to start doing *that*, especially not when everybody else is at it. I reckon the only way forward will be to tax travel enough that measure can be taken to offset the emissions it causes.

I’d definitely want to do that train journey though, sounds amazing!

 

[jæd]

...and got treated like he was George Bush by people who must be responsible for vast amounts of emissions through their recreational flying...

The cop opt the crusties here use is that their long-distance jaunts to NYC and Thailand to discover themselves are more efficient than short jaunts. But I'm still why they are needed. Why can't they discover themselves/meet new cultures/take same drugs in a different place in the UK / Europe..?

 

[Pie 1]

Why can't they discover themselves/meet new cultures/take same drugs in a different place in the UK / Europe..?

I guess that sitting on a windswept seafront in Bogner - off your tits on shit E, talking bollocks to some local geezers whilst sipping on a WKD alchopop - doesn't have quite the same appeal as a similar activity in Thailand does!

 

[tastebud]

Good post and I’m inclined to agree – on that other thread chico enrico asked about flights to Edinburgh and got treated like he was George Bush by people who must be responsible for vast amounts of emissions through their recreational flying, and here this Guardian woman has travelled thousands of miles for a holiday, creating hundreds of tons of emissions, equivalent to (at a guess) a return flight to Eastern Europe, a couple of thousand school runs in a 4x4, or the annual emissions of a good-sized African village – there’s nothing very eco-friendly about that, even before you figure that she probably flew back.

Not going anywhere is the truly eco-friendly option, and I don’t think there’s many of us prepared to start doing *that*, especially not when everybody else is at it. I reckon the only way forward will be to tax travel enough that measure can be taken to offset the emissions it causes.

I’d definitely want to do that train journey though, sounds amazing!

Agree with all this.

 

[girasol]

that's part of the problem, train journeys are more expensive than plane journeys...

We took the Eurostar to Avignon a couple of years ago (not a bad journey, takes 6 hours but the train goes really fast, and you can't open the windows and get a real sense of train travel, feels more like an airplane, but I digress...) and it costs a fair bit more than it would by plane - although when you add up the cost of the journey to/from airports it levels out a bit, it's still more expensive than taking the plane...

 

[kyser_soze]

and you can't open the windows and get a real sense of train travel,

I don't think I'd want to open the windows of a vehicle travelling at 180mph+!!

 

[girasol]

I don't think I'd want to open the windows of a vehicle travelling at 180mph+!!

No, of course not... Can you imagine? Your face would get sucked in to the back of your head!

I was thinking of the slower trains I've been in the past, and how nice it is when you open the windows... Being on super fast trains is more like to being on plane, which is a bit of a shame, but it's the price you pay for the speed.

I remember seeing a lot of concrete walls on the way as well...

oh, well...

 

[trashpony]

No, of course not... Can you imagine? Your face would get sucked in to the back of your head!

I was thinking of the slower trains I've been in the past, and how nice it is when you open the windows... Being on super fast trains is more like to being on plane, which is a bit of a shame, but it's the price you pay for the speed.

I remember seeing a lot of concrete walls on the way as well...

oh, well...

You'd want a concrete wall too if things were regularly zooming past your house at 180mph!

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

Thoughts?

Not going to Thailand expels even less C02. Don't make the trip unless you have to.

 

[tastebud]

Re: Fast trains
I dunno, I love trains though. Even though Euro*'s scabby and grotty it's still really romantic. I love travelling on Euro*.

Don't fall asleep though. My friend did once and when she woke up all her rings were gone. Nothing else taken, just her rings.

 

[baldrick]

I guess that sitting on a windswept seafront in Bogner - off your tits on shit E, talking bollocks to some local geezers whilst sipping on a WKD alchopop - doesn't have quite the same appeal as a similar activity in Thailand does!

but there's gorgeous places in the UK. bognor isn't one of them

vixen - that's bizarre. must have been some sleep though, surely you'd wake up if someone was touching your hands?

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

I'm gonna regret posting this...

Sorry, but I get really fucked off with people telling me not to fly on holiday.

"Higher tax on airline fuel". Yeah, great, let's make nice holidays the preserve of the rich.

How about we look instead at a global system that means pretty much everything you can buy nowadays has criss-corssed the globe during its production, a system that means produce you could have grown down the road has been flown in from the other side of the world.

Sort out the flow of goods around the world first, reduce pollution from car emissions, encourage local energy production, cut down factory emissions and everything else rather than having a go at a familly wanting to get a cheap flight to somewhere warm for 2 weeks a year....

 

[kyser_soze]

Well one is because exhaust gases dumped in the atmosphere at 35K feet have a very different effect on climate than those at ground level. The second is that much of the goods that criss cross the world are actually airfrieghted around the world to preserve freshness. Third is that air travel exists in a tax free bubble for it's fuel that no other transportation system has, so you aren't comparing like with like, and therefore are not paying what would be a full market cost were aviation fuel taxed like petrol etc.

 

[tastebud]

Yeah, great, let's make nice holidays the preserve of the rich.

Good point. This is an objectionable concept I agree.

 

[trashpony]

Good point. This is an objectionable concept I agree.

It is but it is always the problem with anything like this. The only way you will offset the carbon emissions from air travel is either by including it in the price, thereby making it more expensive to fly OR by getting people to offset their emissions themselves.

Is there another way without financial disincentives? I can't think of one

Oh and incidentally - does anyone offset their carbon emissions?

 

[kyser_soze]

"Higher tax on airline fuel". Yeah, great, let's make nice holidays the preserve of the rich.

All it means is a return to flying the way it was before the advent of package holidays which were probably the first big wave of 'cheap' air travel.

The irony of course is that it's the BC1C2 demographic groups who make most use of budget airfares, so you're already talking about removing a consumer subsidy for an already affluent section of the population by and large.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

much of the goods that criss cross the world are actually airfrieghted around the world to preserve freshness

I find meat, fruit and veg bought at a local market, grown/reared down the road, perfectly fresh

Flights hurt the planet, I don't doubt that. But so does pretty much everything we do on this planet, sort the rest out and people can still have a break from their shitty jobs for two weeks a year without being made into social leppers.

 

[tastebud]

without being made into social leppers.

that's a little inaccurate & ott, if you don't mind me saying so.

 

[girasol]

I find meat, fruit and veg bought at a local market, grown/reared down the road, perfectly fresh

I get what you're saying and I agree, there seems to be a shift towards that, which is a good thing...

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

that's a little inaccurate & ott, if you don't mind me saying so.

Course I don't mind

OK, so my phrasing was a bit OTT, but I have been refered to as a "climate criminal" before for suggesting that I'd like to fly on holiday.

I just think flying is being selected as an easy target, when the systems that run pretty much every aspect of our lives are what should be under fire.

 

[Hollis]

..sort the rest out and people can still have a break from their shitty jobs for two weeks a year without being made into social leppers.

Then check out Torquay or Dawlish.. it was good enough for our Grandparents.

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

I really dislike all this paternalistic attitude towards government when it comes to this, i have to say.

It's simply a way of ducking responsibility for your habits - "Unless the government makes it easy for me, i won't bother", is the attitude i'm hearing and frankly, it sucks.

Yes, we do need greater investment in trains/public transport/bicycles/canal boats/ferries/whatever transport to encourage people to fly less, but it won't happen unless there is demand for it NOW and i honestly don't believe that is the case.

People want convenient, cheap flights and pay lip service to the idea of fewer holidays abroad and using slower methods to get there. That is the reality and i'm seeing nothing different here

I disagree.

Even as recently as when I were a lad, back in the early 80s, it was still quite cheap to travel within the UK - affordable train fares, plus the YHA service - while going to Spain etc on beach holidays was pretty inaffordable.

Now the trains have gone through the roof, while it can cost the same for a week in Spain including flights and hotels as it does just go tget from london to edinburgh by train. That is nuts.

 

[moon]

I travelled to Rome via overnight train a couple of years ago and it was wonderful, apart from sharing a cabin with 3 other people, next time I do it I'll go for the double bed in a cabin option and roll into Italy in more style.

its much more expensive than flying but when you travel its just that, the getting there....its as much a part of the trip as arriving and its a lot less stressful than flying.

Slow travel.....

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

I find meat, fruit and veg bought at a local market, grown/reared down the road, perfectly fresh

Flights hurt the planet, I don't doubt that. But so does pretty much everything we do on this planet, sort the rest out and people can still have a break from their shitty jobs for two weeks a year without being made into social leppers.

The thing is flights hurt the planet MORE than most other things we do. You can recycle all you like, get the bus everywhere etc etc and one long haul flight will undo all of that.

I wouldn't dream of calling anyone a 'climate criminal' or anything like that, it's a total waste of time apart from anything else. I do think though that cheap flights all round the world are genuinely unsustainable in every sense of the word. Sooner or later people are going to have to cut down on it.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

The thing is flights hurt the planet MORE than most other things we do

So stop the flights of apples that could be grown in the field behind your house. Stop the flights of trainers from Taiwan that could be made in the factory up the road. Stop the components of your MP3 player being built in three different countries and being assembled in a fourth. Etc. Etc.

People want to, and will, travel. And until we invent a train that can cross the Atlantic, or get to Spain in a couple of hours they will use planes. So, let's look at, and put pressure on, the corporations wasting the planets resources and making us think that buying strawberries in January is a normal thing to do, rather than having a go at the bloke who wants to take his family to a hot beach for two weeks every year.

 

[JTG]

I agree with both balders and bees

We all have a personal responsibility for our own actions and hiding behind governments is a complete and total cop out on an individual level. If you know it's bad, don't bloody do it.

But bees is right too, air freighting stuff around the world is sodding ridiculous. Why the fuck am I buying fair trade apple juice from South Africa when 70% of the West Country's historic orchards have been destroyed in the last few decades? That's gonna stop for a start, only local apple juice from down the farmer's market from now on

And so on. I'm making a big effort to buy stuff that's been grown within about 30 miles of here if I possibly (and not been ferried five times round the country before it gets back here again either). It's not just air passengers that are creating this unsustainable boom in air travel.

Mind you, next time I go abroad in Europe, I'm getting the train.

 

[Yossarian]

I wouldn’t want to see air travel become exclusively the preserve of the rich, and a big rise in air fares would certainly come as a bit of a kick in the teeth to me, but considering the amount of pollution aviation causes and the amount of tax that gets put on other fuel, it seems very wrong that air fuel should for some reason remain tax-free – there’s going to need to be a lot of money spent to deal with carbon emissions, why shouldn’t the price of flying something, whether its apples or people, reflect its true cost?

 

[baldrick]

So stop the flights of apples that could be grown in the field behind your house. Stop the flights of trainers from Taiwan that could be made in the factory up the road. Stop the components of your MP3 player being built in three different countries and being assembled in a fourth. Etc. Etc.

Serious question: How?

The reason stuff is flown round the world is 'cos it's value for money. The reason stuff is made in countries far away from where it's sold is for the same reason.

I'm not suggesting that airline fuel should be taxed out of the reach of the "poor bloke in a shit job", although it should be considered that airline fuel is effectively subsidising the industry.

I am suggesting that people should use some of their sense of personal responsibility - you might buy all your food locally grown and recycle everything, but let's face it, that's not exactly an inconvenience. The food tastes damn good and you can feel smug every time you take your recycling to the tip

Giving up your ski trip to Canada - well, that's unthinkable.