East London Line to be run as private railway

[teuchter]

For the tube, an automated system with a train operator who can travel in the passenger compartments, keeping an eye on things, like on the DLR, sounds like a more useful setup than at present.

As mentioned, this would be a bit too much like progress for the unions I suppose.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I don't claim to speak for everyone! If you approve then that's your decision of course.

Personally, I'd rather see the money go on making public transport more affordable and accessible for everyone, or maybe paying for decent nursing care for the elderly, say.


QUOTE]
Right, because that's how it works isn't it? There isn't decent nursing care for the elderly because the tube drivers are being paid too much. And there's no council housing because of all them bloody asylum seekers...

Nothing to do with the unequal nature of our society and the very large sums of money that those at the top end earn while paying less than 50% tax. Oh no.

You're attacking the wrong people.

 

[PacificOcean]

For the tube, an automated system with a train operator who can travel in the passenger compartments, keeping an eye on things, like on the DLR, sounds like a more useful setup than at present.

As mentioned, this would be a bit too much like progress for the unions I suppose.

How much would it cost to automate the older lines?

 

[teuchter]

Right, because that's how it works isn't it? There isn't decent nursing care for the elderly because the tube drivers are being paid too much. And there's no council housing because of all them bloody asylum seekers...

Nothing to do with the unequal nature of our society and the very large sums of money that those at the top end earn while paying less than 50% tax. Oh no.

You're attacking the wrong people.

Well, there's only so much money to go round the public services, because people can only be persuaded to pay so much tax.

So given that there's a finite amount of money to go round, I simply suggest that it be spent in such a way that it is put to best use (this suggestion remains the same no matter how much money there is to be spent). And I don't happen to feel that overpaying tube drivers is putting it to best use, bearing in mind the other things it could be spent on.

It's plainly not logical to say that the quality of nursing care for the elderly is unaffected by how much money is spent in other areas of the public sector.

I'm open to the idea that those at the top end should be taxed more, although there are plenty of good arguments against this. That's kind of a different discussion though.

 

[Mr T]

For the tube, an automated system with a train operator who can travel in the passenger compartments, keeping an eye on things, like on the DLR, sounds like a more useful setup than at present.

As mentioned, this would be a bit too much like progress for the unions I suppose.

I don't know what lines you use, but on my commutes in the morning a train operator in the carriage would just be making things even more crowded! I never take the DLR in peak times so don't know what their staff end up doing but I doubt that they are more useful in the carriages than in a seperate drivers compartment where they can recieve reliable information from line controllers when you're stuck in a tunnel etc.

As for tube drivers being paid too much, what a load of fucking tosh. If you want to talk about how much their job is 'worth according to the market', then look at how much money london's economy is reported to lose every time they go on strike - millions and millions. Job value isn't determined by what skills etc it takes, otherwise nurses would earn more than people who work in advertising. Tube staff know the value of their work to london's economy and extract that amount from their employers - good on them.

 

[teuchter]

It's a nonsense argument to suggest that the tube drivers' "worth" is related to their ability to inflict damage on london's economy. I presume you wouldn't apply the same measure of "worth" to the tube bombers, whose actions also cost london millions of pounds?

 

[dolly's gal]

privatisation.

brilliant idea.

erm. yeh.

 

[Blagsta]

So given that there's a finite amount of money to go round, I simply suggest that it be spent in such a way that it is put to best use

Like Bob Kiley's pocket?

 

[Blagsta]

It's a nonsense argument to suggest that the tube drivers' "worth" is related to their ability to inflict damage on london's economy.

That's not what he said.

 

[teuchter]

He said: "if you want to talk about how much their job is 'worth according to the market' then look at how much money London's economy is reported to lose every time they go on strike".
What have I misinterpreted?

 

[teuchter]

As far as bob kiley's concerned ... If he was doing a job that provides a net benefit to london's transport, that couldn't have been done equally well by someone else for a lesser wage, then yes, that is putting the money to good use. If he wasn't, then no, that isn't putting the money to good use.

 

[lighterthief]

He said: "if you want to talk about how much their job is 'worth according to the market' then look at how much money London's economy is reported to lose every time they go on strike".
What have I misinterpreted?

Yup, that's how I read it too.

 

[MikeMcc]

They certainly need some staff on the trains, be it the driver or some form of 'minder' on an automated train, the normal job may be pretty mundane but they are the ones that are trained to deal with emergencies. For that alone they should be decently paid.

 

[scifisam]

They certainly need some staff on the trains, be it the driver or some form of 'minder' on an automated train, the normal job may be pretty mundane but they are the ones that are trained to deal with emergencies. For that alone they should be decently paid.

I agree. I'd be afraid to travel on an underground line with no driver. The DLR was engineered to be mostly automated, with the exception of certain stretches (the underground bits, funnily enough) and bends. Not quite the same as the underground.

I also think that tube drivers are decently paid:

@Littlebabyjesus - it is ridiculous to say that £30k is 'almost exactly the London average wage.' That 'average wage' includes the top earners in the city, which skew the results to a degree where the 'average' is meaningless and you need to look at the mode wage instead.

To recycle an old argument: why should tube drivers get paid more than teachers, junior doctors, social workers, policemen and firemen in the city? What they should get is a decent wage. They should get a lot more than the national average wage even if they've just entered the profession. And they do.

Still, at least there's one union with real power still - better that than see all unions gone. I've got nothing against the union leaders getting the most for their members - that's their job - it's just a shame that it's not possible (or seems to be impossible) for other professions.


(Sorry if it seems like I've jumped in late - I was readng along before).

 

[teuchter]

In order to put this discussion in context, it would be useful to establish what the current deal is for a tube driver. I understand it's something along these lines but would be happy to be put right if this is inaccurate:
about 32K per annum, 35 hour week, 36 days holiday, free travel throughout london for employee + whole family.

 

[jæd]

In order to put this discussion in context, it would be useful to establish what the current deal is for a tube driver. I understand it's something along these lines but would be happy to be put right if this is inaccurate:
about 32K per annum, 35 hour week, 36 days holiday, free travel throughout london for employee + whole family.

And this is something a computer can do...? (It would probably be much cheaper to develop and test...)

Btw, think it through... If you have one person having 36 days holiday a year, that would mean you would have to employ one *extra* driver for every 12...

(Wasting £32,000 x num drivers extra a year because of Unions)

 

[shave]

It's a nonsense argument to suggest that the tube drivers' "worth" is related to their ability to inflict damage on london's economy. I presume you wouldn't apply the same measure of "worth" to the tube bombers, whose actions also cost london millions of pounds?

Good retort!

 

[teuchter]

Incidentally, someone mentioned to me yesterday that the RMT is currently balloting for yet another strike over pay. I'll be interested to see what comes out of that.

 

[Blagsta]

He said: "if you want to talk about how much their job is 'worth according to the market' then look at how much money London's economy is reported to lose every time they go on strike".
What have I misinterpreted?

It reads to me that its about the contribution they make to the economy by keeping London moving, getting people to and from work, getting shoppers to and from the shops.

 

[Blagsta]

As far as bob kiley's concerned ... If he was doing a job that provides a net benefit to london's transport, that couldn't have been done equally well by someone else for a lesser wage, then yes, that is putting the money to good use. If he wasn't, then no, that isn't putting the money to good use.

You're kidding, right? How does Kiley need a £2m house in Belgravia to do his job?

 

[teuchter]

I'm not expressing an opinion either way regarding bob kiley because I don't really feel qualified to do so. At least tfl had the option of not employing him they decided he wasn't good value for money.

 

[Blagsta]

You're not qualified to express an opinion on TfL housing someone in a £2m house in Belgravia, while also paying him £2m? Yet you feel qualified to express an opinion on how much tube drivers earn? How bizarre.

 

[teuchter]

I'm afraid I don't know much about the details of his terms of employment and haven't seen any assessments of his effectiveness in his role. Two million quid sounds like rather a lot, but I don't want to be making kneejerk judgements without knowing the facts.
On the other hand I have a fairly good idea about what tube drivers do and what they get paid for it.

 

[Blagsta]

Well maybe you could educate yourself then?

 

[Blagsta]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/transport/Story/0,2763,1650614,00.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4623518.stm

 

[teuchter]

Blagsta, thanks for the links.
I could, should and will educate myself. And would have done by now if it weren't for the fact that sky are currently failing to provide us with a functioning broadband connection. My access to the internet at the moment is via my mobile phone.
Anyway, even if i end up agreeing that bob k is overpaid, it doesn't affect my argument about the tube drivers.

 

[Blagsta]

Well the point is that paying Kiley all that money is not putting it to good use.