Dumbass cyclist morons who overtake traffic on the left

[mannybianco]

why ?

I like to pull up alongside motorists and wind them up

It's all about foresight and not being taken by surprise.

You don't do anything in traffic you can't possibly complete.

The dangerous activity we're talking about here is cyclists squeezing into a gap on the left hand side and unexpectedly encountering an obstacle - e.g. a door or a parked car - what then ?

If it's not safe to overtake, it's not safe to "undertake" either.

The only reason we wind up motorists is because we keep going while they cant. If you stop to point it out you have nothing to point out anymore...

Its not safe to over AND undertake - literally, imagine two cyclists on each side trying to get past the same car. Unsafe. Was what the OP's point was, gutter riders forcing the traffic out into their path. OP was just on the wrong side of the road.

As for parked cars, if you cant see them you really have no business stepping out your door. As for opening doors, thats trash. Very rarely does a passenger car door open when the driver hasnt fully pulled over to the kerb - leaving no space for a cyclist. Much more common is the drivers door blindly flinging open, and they dont always pull right over to do that, so thats a problem for the right-siders.

All I am saying is you cant do both - pick a side and stay there. Unfortunately its a group decision, and the group have chosen left. The law is an ass on this matter and deserves to be completely ignored in the name of safety. Id much rather get a bollocking from a time wasting cop than eat an oncoming bus.

 

[cybertect]

Someone else (I forget who, my apologies) mentioned the number of bus lanes in London. Those are what I generally cycle down, so in order to cycle to the right of traffic when the bus line cuts out, I would have to cut in front of moving traffic before cycling next to them. Cars also often drive so close to the centre line that to cycle to the right of them, I would actually have to cycle in the other lane, full of cars going in the opposite direction.

The Highway Code is quite sensibly logical on this point. If it is not safe to proceed while overtaking, do not do so.

[138]

• 
  Before overtaking you should make sure the road is sufficiently clear ahead

[139]

• give way to oncoming vehicles before passing parked vehicles or other obstructions on your side of the road

I also don't quite get the concept of 'overtaking' with regard to cyclists. When I'm sharing a lane with motor vehicles (rather than being in a cycle lane or bus/cycle lane), in London, I'm generally going faster than the motor vehicles. So should I always cycle on the right, since I'm always overtaking?

That's the way I understand it, yes. It's what I do on a bike in such a situation.

It's exactly the same as I would do in a car in an analogous situation such as overtaking a slower moving lane on a dual carriageway or motorway. People who pass on the near-side is one of my pet peeves of motorway driving, BTW, along with middle and outer lane hoggers who don't get back over to the left when it's safe to. The same principle applies on all roads.

How about when there are stop-start cycle lanes or cycle/bus lanes? Should I swerve in and out of traffic to be on the right, then in my own lane, then on the right, and so on?

The use of cycle lanes is (fortunately) not compulsory for cyclists. I'd suggest it's up to your judgement whether it's safe and appropriate to move into a dedicated cycle lane, depending the road conditions at the time.

Whatever you do, cutting in and out and swerving shouldn't have a place on the roads.

[139]

• use your mirrors, signal when it is safe to do so, take a quick sideways glance into the blind spot area and then start to move out.

On a bike, you probably don't have mirrors (unless it's a Raleigh Chopper ) but I was taught to do an over-the-shoulder check as a substitute. If you're moving out into traffic, signal, for heaven's sake. If you're moving back into a cycle lane, signal. Let everyone else know what you're up to before you do it. I expect the same of everyone on the road, regardless of their source of power.

The whole point of the Highway Code is to introduce a level of predictability, so that road users can have a reasonable expectation that they know what other people are doing and are going to do. Where predictability is absent, accidents happen.

A short anecdote:

The only time in my life that I've ever made a court appearance was about ten years ago when I was knocked off my bike by an oncoming Fiesta driver who turned right into my path, wrecking my bike and causing an injury that kept me off work for some time.

When I was on the witness stand, his solicitor argued that I had overtaken on the nearside of a car going in my direction, blocking his view of me so that he had thought that he was safe to turn right. That I admitted I could average 20+ mph on the open road and used toe-clips apparently contributed to my demeanour as some kind of 'impatient cyclist' who would perform this sort of manouevre

I was able to answer with a clear conscience that I would not have done this (and besides that, the car behind me was about 30 metres to my rear so there was no way I could have impaired my visibility in this way)

Fortunately the driver of the car who was behind me backed up my story and the guy got points for careless (or reckless, I don't recall which) driving which meant he ended up losing his licence for a year.

The point is that these things may matter when it (literally) comes to the crunch.

 

[Herbsman.]

OP was just on the wrong side of the road.

I think you mean 'wrong side of his lane' rather than 'wrong side of the road'... either way, you are wrong. If I stayed on the left to overtake as you suggest, I'd have to stop for all the buses that pull in to stop every hundred metres, stop for everything that turns left into side roads, and cut across the path of cars every time I need to get past a parked vehicle.

 

[Ribbit]

only the oncoming ones - you're overtaking the ones to your left, they're not trying to pass you. If they are, you're in the wrong place, signal left, move in front of them and let them pass you on the outside.

And "statistically twice as likely" - only if being hit is random.

Whatever, the best place to be depends on the traffic situation, which you are the only person to judge at the time. It's just that in my experience as a cyclist, the gutter is very seldom the best place to be; and in my experience as a driver, it's seldom the best place for a cyclist to be.

Yeah, but again, if I am in the middle of the road and am forced to signal to cut across the road to get to the left-hand side, I am endangering myself because if someone doesn't let me in, I could be sat there, in the middle of the road, waiting to be let in. On the other hand, I could miss read the situation, think that someone has let me in, when they haven't even seen me and end up run over.

 

[mannybianco]

I think you mean 'wrong side of his lane' rather than 'wrong side of the road'... either way, you are wrong. If I stayed on the left to overtake as you suggest, I'd have to stop for all the buses that pull in to stop every hundred metres, stop for everything that turns left into side roads, and cut across the path of cars every time I need to get past a parked vehicle.

Whoops! Yeah lane, not road. VERY unsafe

But the rest - cant agree

Stop for buses. Nope. They become the new kerb and you cycle round, like every car is doing. As long as you fit.

Stop for every car turning left. No more than stopping for every car turning right. And as people expect cycles on the left, thats where they tend to look for them.

Cross the path of cars for parked ones? eh? where are the cars going? over the top? everybody goes round. same as for buses.

If your moaning about everyone on the left forcing cars out, maybe you are the odd one out? Legal or not, its safer, just by the weight of numbers doing it and the expectations and assumptions this instills in other road users.

 

[Ribbit]

That's theory, but where's the evidence? I'd bet that actual recorded statistics might just prove you wrong...

Well, statistically in theory, then.

 

[scifisam]

Cybertect, I do signal, thanks. I hadn't heard of 'undertaking,' but I'm not totally unaware of road safety rules.

(Though I never passed my cycle proficiency test - took the course 6 times and, every single time, when it came to the test, the examiner failed my bike. He even failed the bike when I went to the bike shop at lunchtime and had it checked out to confirm it was all in working order. I have no idea why he kept failing me, but I do know that it meant I know the Highway Code really well!)

The Highway Code, however, does not actually give cyclists much help on overtaking. 'If it is not safe to proceed while overtaking, do not do so.' (Cybertect's words, not the Highway Code's, in case it looks like I've misread. I reckon he/she made a reasonable summing up with that). It's rarely totally safe to overtake. Most of my cycling is overtaking, since I ride on slow city roads where I am faster than the cars. Ergo, I shouldn't ride at all. ???

Seems we can't win, or even know what the criteria for winning are!

Ah well, I'm careful when I cycle. (Famous last words). I'm never going to cycle down the side of a big vehicle or one which is really close to the kerb. I reckon I'm going to have to continue 'undertaking' on the left most of the time, because I prefer to stay in bus/cycle lanes and it would be dangerous to swerve in and out to overtake on the right.

I'll try overtaking on the right when it's a realistic alternative, though; before, if anything, I would have thought it was prohibited rather than promoted, but now I know better, so that's good.

I understand your ire, Herbsman. It is amazing how easy it is to get pissed off at other road users, and how short the irritation lasts.

(Except for wheeled road users stopping on pedestrian crossings. But that's a different thread).

 

[cybertect]

Yeah, but again, if I am in the middle of the road and am forced to signal to cut across the road to get to the left-hand side, I am endangering myself because if someone doesn't let me in, I could be sat there, in the middle of the road, waiting to be let in. On the other hand, I could miss read the situation, think that someone has let me in, when they haven't even seen me and end up run over.

Yeah, but at that point it's the drivers of the cars passing to your nearside that I'll have issues with

That situation's not unique to cyclists. The same things happen on motorways:

Move into an outside lane to overtake a car. The car you're overtaking speeds up which may mean you no longer have the clear distance between you and a car ahead in the outside lane to complete the overtaking manouevre (or you hit the speed limit and no-one here will want to condone speeding in a car, will they )

With you in the outside lane, cars on your nearside lane now proceed to pass inside leaving you no room to get back in.

Same problem, just a different sort of road and vehicle and higher velocities involved.

 

[cybertect]

The Highway Code, however, does not actually give cyclists much help on overtaking. 'If it is not safe to proceed while overtaking, do not do so.' (Cybertect's words, not the Highway Code's, in case it looks like I've misread. I reckon he/she made a reasonable summing up with that). It's rarely totally safe to overtake. Most of my cycling is overtaking, since I ride on slow city roads where I am faster than the cars. Ergo, I shouldn't ride at all. ???

As I mentioned in my opening post, you have to be able to ride with confidence and claim road space for your own. That's not a prescription for arrogance, merely a fact of survival. It helps other road users understand your intentions and act accordingly. Dithering and nervousness will earn failure in a Driving Test for good reasons.

I don't think you can ever rule out risk entirely, but there's a difference between recklessness, carelessness and reasonableness in these matters which is rightly recognised by the law.

It's going to be a judgement call every time. However, the Highway Code does give some clear guidance about how to evaluate each situation. The rule is to "overtake only when it is safe to do so" (that's the exact wording, BTW) and then lists what is and what is not safe. Interpret for the conditions on the road as they present themselves.

I'll post a link rather than quote the whole thing again.

 

[Ribbit]

Yeah, but at that point it's the drivers of the cars passing to your nearside that I'll have issues with

That situation's not unique to cyclists. The same things happen on motorways:

Move into an outside lane to overtake a car. The car you're overtaking speeds up which may mean you no longer have the clear distance between you and a car ahead in the outside lane to complete the overtaking manouevre (or you hit the speed limit and no-one here will want to condone speeding in a car, will they )

With you in the outside lane, cars on your nearside lane now proceed to pass inside leaving you no room to get back in.

Same problem, just a different sort of road and vehicle and higher velocities involved.

Yeah, but I'd much rather be in a car (I don't drive) than on my bike in that situation. I'd be seen, for starters.

 

[Herbsman.]

Stop for buses. Nope. They become the new kerb and you cycle round, like every car is doing. As long as you fit.

I think you've just contradicted yourself there.

Stop for every car turning left. No more than stopping for every car turning right. And as people expect cycles on the left, thats where they tend to look for them.

Fact 1: motorists rarely check their left wing mirror before turning left. Fact 2: it is common for motorists not to signal before suddenly turning left. Fact 3: motorists often check their right hand mirror before turning right. See if you can work out where I'm going with that.

Cross the path of cars for parked ones? eh? where are the cars going? over the top? everybody goes round. same as for buses.

exactly, everyone goes around. therefore, if you are on the left of a queue of slow-moving cars, and you need to get around a parked car, then you need to move over to the right to get past it. a little bit difficult if there is a line of cars on your right, don't you think?

 

[mannybianco]

I think you've just contradicted yourself there.

Fact 1: motorists rarely check their left wing mirror before turning left. Fact 2: it is common for motorists not to signal before suddenly turning left. Fact 3: motorists often check their right hand mirror before turning right. See if you can work out where I'm going with that.

exactly, everyone goes around. therefore, if you are on the left of a queue of slow-moving cars, and you need to get around a parked car, then you need to move over to the right to get past it. a little bit difficult if there is a line of cars on your right, don't you think?

honestly, im not looking for an argument here. we are fellow cyclists, but i am suprised by your views.

if you dont fit down between a stopped bus and a car, you stop. thats not even an opinion, if you cant fit anywhere - you stop. whats the alternative? i dont see a contradiction, unless you mean the buses that acclerate past just to cut you up and block you off when they stop.

Its all very well listing "facts". But my experience just doesnt reflect this. Motorists check their left mirror a lot more than their right. They expect cyclists to be there. What would they check theyre right for? Oncoming traffic that had passed, changed their minds and started reversing? Its all about their expectations and assumptions. More cyclists (by far) tend to the left, so that is where they are expected. Its my whole point.

As for the parked car, your just being facetious now. You have to move to the right to get past, but so does everybody or they will crash. RELATIVE to the traffic, youre still on the left. Everybody follows a trajectory around the obstacle. You dont get a line of cars bumper to bumper behind a parked car, waiting for the owner to turn up and drive off.

You may have the moral high ground in being a right-tending cyclist, waving a copy of the highway code at everybody that doesnt expect you to be there. But in practical terms you are in the minority, the unsafe minority. With a bunch of motorcyclists beeping and revving their engines behind you.

The acid test is the reality of the situation. Cyclists may not know the highway code back to front, but they know where they feel safest. On the left.

You cant deny that. Thats the whole point of your first post - EVERYBODY cycles on the left, making me, the righteous cyclist, feel a bit of a tit when cars keep pulling out on me.

All i can see is a self righteous tone (dont mean to be that emotive but i cant think of another term) stubbornly refusing to accept the reality of the situation.

You know most cyclists are coming up the left, and yet you persist on the right, knowing you are in more danger because of it. Why?

No offence/hard feelings - stay cool, stay safe. I dont want to piss off a fellow cyclist.

 

[scifisam]

Cybertect, precisely which of my points do you disagree with, and why on Earth have you posted the Highway Code link again, when I've already shown that I read it the last time you posted it?

The Highway Code for cyclists practically encourages 'dithering and nervousness:' It really does not encourage your idea of claiming your space on the road.

59: On the right. If you are turning right, check the traffic to ensure it is safe, then signal and move to the centre of the road. Wait until there is a safe gap in the oncoming traffic before completing the turn. It may be safer to wait on the left until there is a safe gap or to dismount and push your cycle across the road.

62: You may feel safer either keeping to the left on the roundabout or dismounting and walking your cycle round on the pavement or verge.

It struck me as a shame that the Highway Code takes into account just how unsafe the roads are for cyclists (it makes it seem as though it's right that they're unsafe), but it is sensible. So, what I do is exactly what the Highway Code says to do. You give me a link to the Highway Code. Again, where do you disagree with me?

 

[keybored]

I've seen this scenario from 2 places:
Once in Bristol in almost stationary traffic (is it ever any other way now? ) I was driving slowly down a steep hill and I stopped and flashed another car on the other side who was waiting to turn right. As he did a cyclist came bombing down the hill on my left and the other car just missed her and she wobbled all over the place. Didn't see her in my mirror when I flashed.
About a month later in London the reverse happened and a big white van flashed me to turn right. As I did a cyclist came from nowhere (well, from the vans nearside) and smashed into my wing and sent the cyclist straight over my bonnet and onto the floor; lucky he had a lid on and wasn't too badly hurt. And 'cos I was so concerned about him I didn't check the car for damage until after he'd chipped off (small dent, company car, I had to pay )
So now I cycle a lot more I always try to overtake carefully on the right. I do pass on the left sometimes in stationary traffic if there's no room or it's too dangerous on the right, but I'm well wary when I do.

 

[Ribbit]

honestly, im not looking for an argument here. we are fellow cyclists, but i am suprised by your views.

if you dont fit down between a stopped bus and a car, you stop. thats not even an opinion, if you cant fit anywhere - you stop. whats the alternative? i dont see a contradiction, unless you mean the buses that acclerate past just to cut you up and block you off when they stop.

Its all very well listing "facts". But my experience just doesnt reflect this. Motorists check their left mirror a lot more than their right. They expect cyclists to be there. What would they check theyre right for? Oncoming traffic that had passed, changed their minds and started reversing? Its all about their expectations and assumptions. More cyclists (by far) tend to the left, so that is where they are expected. Its my whole point.

I stopped reading your post here because it's where I agree.
Whenever I stop at traffic lights and can't get to the front, either because I'm blocked off or because I haven't got time before the lights change, I stop in either the middle of the lane between cars or on the left between them. The driver of the car in front always sees me there and always waits to see if I'm going to pull away first, or if I'm letting him go. The only time I will ever pull away first is if I'm first at the traffic lights, or I have managed to get to the front of the queue. I find that in this instance drivers know exactly where to look and always find me there. Granted they wouldn't miss me if I was on their right, but it would be alien to us both.

 

[gentlegreen]

Oh well, I'll unsubscribe here. Herbsman et al. have made the annual brave effort to educate the sheep.

Thankfully, the dodgy, gutter-wobbling no-lights, squeezing-through-dangerous-gaps-without-anticipation-or-indicating cyclists tend to give up for the winter so it should be quiet for a month or two.

In the meantime I will focus on getting my new lights finished and maybe treat myself to a new reflective vest.

See you all next year - maybe

 

[Herbsman.]

The funniest question on this thread, asks why a motorist would check their right mirror

I could insult you for asking such a stupid question, but I'll just leave you to think about it.

 

[cybertect]

Ergo, I shouldn't ride at all.

It was that bit that I disagreed with.

e2a kudos for indicating.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

Fact 1: motorists rarely check their left wing mirror before turning left. Fact 2: it is common for motorists not to signal before suddenly turning left. Fact 3: motorists often check their right hand mirror before turning right. See if you can work out where I'm going with that.?

No, not really. I just make sure that i give any vehicle plenty of room at a junction, and then speed up afterwards and shoot past them on the inside usually, on the left. Motorists should check both mirrors but ime they often don't so the best thing to do is not predict or guess what they are going to do.

 

[mtbskalover]

Motorists should check both mirrors but ime they often don't so the best thing to do is not predict or guess what they are going to do.

when i was taught to drive, wat 4 years ago, i was told to check both mirros when pulling away from lights of whatever. THe reason for checking the left hand mirror, i was told it was to look for bike riders.

 

[Pingu]

so...


serrated or straight?

 

[spoone]

edit: didnt read post

 

[Termite Man]

Yeah, but again, if I am in the middle of the road and am forced to signal to cut across the road to get to the left-hand side, I am endangering myself because if someone doesn't let me in, I could be sat there, in the middle of the road, waiting to be let in. On the other hand, I could miss read the situation, think that someone has let me in, when they haven't even seen me and end up run over.

This has been covered the acceleration for someone on a bike at very low speed is greater than that of a car . A car that was not moving will pull ahead and leave a nice gap to slip in behind , car drivers also leave a safe space in case the car in front has to stop suddenly to avoid accidents so anyone vaugely competant at riding a bike will be able to slip into a gap . If you can't do that then get the fucking bus !

 

[Ribbit]

I don't know how much attention you pay, but most car drivers leave very little if any space between themselves and the car in front. I'd be lucky to get my foot in there most of the time, let alone my bike.

 

[bruise]

there's a lot of 'yew don't wanna do that' from the pro-end cyclists on this thread - you'd think they want to reserve the road for themselves and cars only. i also want my granny and my 10 year old to be able to cycle on the roads, thank you very much - please don't be insisting on rules that only a jackass with suicidal tendancies can follow. thank you.

 

[Sigmund Fraud]

No offence to the OP, but I'm a bit at this thread...and I can't believe its run to so many pages.

Without trying to sound like a hippy (but probably managing to), cycling is like an organic thing to me ie theres no hard and fast rule on how its best done. Sometimes its better to overtake on the left, other times on the right, it just depends doesn't it? You've gotta weigh up every bit of your journey as you go and make descisions on the spot - imho like.

 

[Herbsman.]

Ok, I've said I agree that cyclists should pass on whichever side is the safest, and I think I might have also said that sometimes passing on the left's unavoidable... it's just that in my experience it's caused trouble sometimes.

Yesterday I was riding home and decided to pass slow traffic on the left, and guess what: the same thing that caused me to start this thread, happened to a motorcyclist because of me. He was trying to overtake the traffic, when some geezer in a car saw me coming up behind and decided to move over to the right to give me more room. I saw the motorcyclist next to the car at that point, he wobbled as the car moved out on him, slammed on his brakes and beeped his horn... I think I shall overtake on the right or stay put in future...

 

[gentlegreen]

car drivers also leave a safe space in case the car in front has to stop suddenly to avoid accidents

On which planet is that ?

 

[Herbsman.]

On which planet is that ?

I'd like to know the answer to that too