Dulwich Hamlet 2-1 Thurrock, Saturday 14th April 2018

[Dulwich Mishi]

In fairness he has been seriously ill for a long time and the club has been on sale since the end of last season.

Prospective buyers have had a chance, I guess, from his perspective, and the area is not short of other teams playing either at Bostik One or Premier level.

It's a real shame.

I'm sorry, I realise he is ill, but if he wanted to leave a legacy...
And as for 'the area is not short of other clubs...' well that could be aimed at ourselves. What's the point of fighting for our own club when there's so many others to choose from?

 

[steeplejack]

Be seething all you like, that's the reality. Clubs like Thurrock are watched by 100-120 most weeks and only a core of around 50 or so are diehard fans (even of those, many have affiliations to "bigger" teams in Greater London, such as the Hammers).

The support reminded me of a Scottish junior following- many of whom aren't wholly affiliated with the club as such but just enjoy a decent game at a reasonable price and will go wherever locally can provide that on a Saturday. It's the last whisper of the old fashioned "neutral" who used to be a much more common type of football supporter back in the 1950s/60s; someone not affiliated to a club as such but to the game itself. The die-hard one club ultra style fan doesn't work at every club at non league level.

Apparently many Thurrock fans are already planning to follow "Stimmo", and no doubt half the current squad, to wherever the alopecian gaffer next lands a gig. Thurrock's very successful junior set up is apparently in talks with Grays Athletic about moving lock stock and barrel to there.

It is sad and I am sure someone with money could re-boot the club in the Essex seniors if there was a will, but there is no sign of such a person emerging. I'm not going to criticise the outgoing owner who created the club from scratch, who has been ill, and wants to spend what time he has left with his family. It's a very rare case, a football club going down the tubes without one bad man to point the finger at, but this would appear to be an example. I am sure if there was a viable future ownership for the club in the Isthmian Premier he'd have been only too delighted to do a deal.

This rather good article, a few years ago puts the area and its small football clubs into some kind of perspective.

 

[editor]

Some photos from the game. Love this one:

Dulwich Hamlet’s push for promotion continues with 2-1 victory over Thurrock, Sat 14th Apr 2018

 

[Dulwich Mishi]

Be seething all you like, that's the reality. Clubs like Thurrock are watched by 100-120 most weeks and only a core of around 50 or so are diehard fans (even of those, many have affiliations to "bigger" teams in Greater London, such as the Hammers).

The support reminded me of a Scottish junior following- many of whom aren't wholly affiliated with the club as such but just enjoy a decent game at a reasonable price and will go wherever locally can provide that on a Saturday. It's the last whisper of the old fashioned "neutral" who used to be a much more common type of football supporter back in the 1950s/60s; someone not affiliated to a club as such but to the game itself. The die-hard one club ultra style fan doesn't work at every club at non league level.

Apparently many Thurrock fans are already planning to follow "Stimmo", and no doubt half the current squad, to wherever the alopecian gaffer next lands a gig. Thurrock's very successful junior set up is apparently in talks with Grays Athletic about moving lock stock and barrel to there.

It is sad and I am sure someone with money could re-boot the club in the Essex seniors if there was a will, but there is no sign of such a person emerging. I'm not going to criticise the outgoing owner who created the club from scratch, who has been ill, and wants to spend what time he has left with his family. It's a very rare case, a football club going down the tubes without one bad man to point the finger at, but this would appear to be an example. I am sure if there was a viable future ownership for the club in the Isthmian Premier he'd have been only too delighted to do a deal.

This rather good article a few years ago puts the area and its small football clubs into some kind of perspective.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this.

As someone who watches The Hamlet as the only club I support, but who also watches non-league at all levels, and many times as season (last night was my 121st game of the season) I am more than aware of what makes up and constituted non-league supporters up and down the land.

I'll take you word on Scottish Junior football, as I've seen no more than 30 or 40 Scottish Junior games over the last ten years or so.

Your article link only shows a photo when I click on it unfortunately, but having been a no-league fan for all of my life I am aware of the local geography and make-up of the local non-league scene in the London and south-east area.

I know how many these clubs get to watch them, but the point I'm trying to make is that they are no less important than clubs with bigger gates and history like our own, who are currently riding a crest of wave over the last decade under Gavin Rose.

I stick by belief that Tommy South could have offered Thurrock Football Club over to the fans, if he cared so much about them, and despite everything he has done for that club, the end is rather shoddy.

 

[steeplejack]

Yeah, I'm fine with that. I don't think I've ever inferred that Thurrock were "less important" than other clubs. Having a soft spot for them and watched them a fair bit a few years back, I am very sad about their seeming demise.

The article goes into the history of Thurrock and the other four clubs within a goal-kick distance in the area. I was busy when writing the original post and stupidly gave the wrong link- sorry- - here it is again. It also makes the point that Thurrock have been over-reliant on too few people almost since their inception.

Even if Tommy South offered the club to the fans and to walk away, there would then be the small matter of financing the club and developing some kind of long term plan. A decent Bostik League budget is 300-500k. per year. Clearly, not sustainable on gates of around 100 without annual six figure investment from an individual or company, for all but those with significant financial means. People with that kind of money have had nearly a year to come forward and, well, haven't. Sadly, the value of the stadium's land and potential other purposes with the Thames Gateway project will likely attract more investors than a small football club with only a few fans.Given the hollowing out of London and the South East's cultural and sporting attractions in the greedy short-term pursuit of money by property developers, it's no surprise.

I can see where you're coming from. I respect that you've managed to make so many games in a season!

 

[StephenMac]

Well, this disagreement is all rather civilised. You know it's Urban, right?

 

[Dulwich Mishi]

Yeah, I'm fine with that. I don't think I've ever inferred that Thurrock were "less important" than other clubs. Having a soft spot for them and watched them a fair bit a few years back, I am very sad about their seeming demise.

The article goes into the history of Thurrock and the other four clubs within a goal-kick distance in the area. I was busy when writing the original post and stupidly gave the wrong link- sorry- - here it is again. It also makes the point that Thurrock have been over-reliant on too few people almost since their inception.

Even if Tommy South offered the club to the fans and to walk away, there would then be the small matter of financing the club and developing some kind of long term plan. A decent Bostik League budget is 300-500k. per year. Clearly, not sustainable on gates of around 100 without annual six figure investment from an individual or company, for all but those with significant financial means. People with that kind of money have had nearly a year to come forward and, well, haven't. Sadly, the value of the stadium's land and potential other purposes with the Thames Gateway project will likely attract more investors than a small football club with only a few fans.Given the hollowing out of London and the South East's cultural and sporting attractions in the greedy short-term pursuit of money by property developers, it's no surprise.

I can see where you're coming from. I respect that you've managed to make so many games in a season!

The vast majority of clubs throughout non-league are over-reliant on far too people.

You quote a Bostik League budget....I would suggest that's only a decent budget if you want to challenge in the Premier...I would rather my Club survived and lived within it's means, even if that was [as in Thurrock] in the bostik North, or even the Essex Senior League, where you could then re-group, have a chance of stenghtening the club, or building new support and backing.

You mention the Thames Gateway, yes a threat, but also a challenge in terms attracting new support & sponsorship.

In the overall bigger picture of football in this country we too could be seen as a 'small club' and the value of our ground aligned with the need for housing far outweighs us as well then? Maybe we should all just give up and support wherever Gavin chooses to go?

 

[editor]

Well, this disagreement is all rather civilised. You know it's Urban, right?

That's FIGHTING TALK.

 

[steeplejack]

The vast majority of clubs throughout non-league are over-reliant on far too people.

You quote a Bostik League budget....I would suggest that's only a decent budget if you want to challenge in the Premier...I would rather my Club survived and lived within it's means, even if that was [as in Thurrock] in the bostik North, or even the Essex Senior League, where you could then re-group, have a chance of stenghtening the club, or building new support and backing.

You mention the Thames Gateway, yes a threat, but also a challenge in terms attracting new support & sponsorship.

In the overall bigger picture of football in this country we too could be seen as a 'small club' and the value of our ground aligned with the need for housing far outweighs us as well then? Maybe we should all just give up and support wherever Gavin chooses to go?

well of course every fan wants their club to survive at a good level. That's a given. I think actually the budget quoted is a conservative one. To win the National League (aka conference) you need an upper six-seven figure budget nowadays. At National League South level, about 650-750k. (Thurrock simply couldn't survive financially for the long term at that level- the horror season when they dropped out bottom of Conference South showed that)

Whilst wage bills at clubs like Thurrock are negligible, other clubs in the Bostik league will have a wage bill in the region of 200k. per year, and some individual players earning a very nice second living out of the game.

I really think you are fixating on something I haven't said (as regards your latter comments). I am glad Dulwich are sticking up to a hideous, predatory developer and doing well against them. I am pretty sure they will be back at Champion Hill and vindicated before too long.

However, the motivations of different fan bases and the very particular history of this one particular club under discussion here are very different to Dulwich's case- it is this you seem to be having difficulty in grasping. People have had a year to take the club on, and haven't. Nor has the small fan base which I doubt is either big or well-resourced enough. That's not criticism of Thurrock the club or the fans, or indifference to the club's fate, just bald fact.

There's no "one size fits all" solution for football clubs at this level. It's been a while since I've been at Ship Lane, but if there is a fan committee ready to take the club forward at Essex Senior or even amateur level then they are very low profile.

Sadly perusing the local media and one or two forums this week, the reaction to the club's resignation from the league has been, beyond the core regulars, either an indifferent shrug, or resignation to fate.

 

[PartisanDulwich]

 

[PartisanDulwich]

 

[Dulwich Mishi]

well of course every fan wants their club to survive at a good level. That's a given. I think actually the budget quoted is a conservative one. To win the National League (aka conference) you need an upper six-seven figure budget nowadays. At National League South level, about 650-750k. (Thurrock simply couldn't survive financially for the long term at that level- the horror season when they dropped out bottom of Conference South showed that)

Whilst wage bills at clubs like Thurrock are negligible, other clubs in the Bostik league will have a wage bill in the region of 200k. per year, and some individual players earning a very nice second living out of the game.

I really think you are fixating on something I haven't said (as regards your latter comments). I am glad Dulwich are sticking up to a hideous, predatory developer and doing well against them. I am pretty sure they will be back at Champion Hill and vindicated before too long.

However, the motivations of different fan bases and the very particular history of this one particular club under discussion here are very different to Dulwich's case- it is this you seem to be having difficulty in grasping. People have had a year to take the club on, and haven't. Nor has the small fan base which I doubt is either big or well-resourced enough. That's not criticism of Thurrock the club or the fans, or indifference to the club's fate, just bald fact.

There's no "one size fits all" solution for football clubs at this level. It's been a while since I've been at Ship Lane, but if there is a fan committee ready to take the club forward at Essex Senior or even amateur level then they are very low profile.

Sadly perusing the local media and one or two forums this week, the reaction to the club's resignation from the league has been, beyond the core regulars, either an indifferent shrug, or resignation to fate.

I also don't think you're grasping what I'm saying...in that if the owner really cared about the club he had built from scratch he wouldn't have offered it up to the highest bidder, but offered it a fans consorttium, to see how they fare, on a small/peppercorn rent. Unless he seriously needs the money for something else then that is what he should have really done if he cared about the club he built, and not just his own ego and his own club. "Game's over, it's my ball and I'm going home" syndrome.

 

[Dulwich Mishi]

well of course every fan wants their club to survive at a good level. That's a given. I think actually the budget quoted is a conservative one. To win the National League (aka conference) you need an upper six-seven figure budget nowadays. At National League South level, about 650-750k. (Thurrock simply couldn't survive financially for the long term at that level- the horror season when they dropped out bottom of Conference South showed that)

Whilst wage bills at clubs like Thurrock are negligible, other clubs in the Bostik league will have a wage bill in the region of 200k. per year, and some individual players earning a very nice second living out of the game.

I really think you are fixating on something I haven't said (as regards your latter comments). I am glad Dulwich are sticking up to a hideous, predatory developer and doing well against them. I am pretty sure they will be back at Champion Hill and vindicated before too long.

However, the motivations of different fan bases and the very particular history of this one particular club under discussion here are very different to Dulwich's case- it is this you seem to be having difficulty in grasping. People have had a year to take the club on, and haven't. Nor has the small fan base which I doubt is either big or well-resourced enough. That's not criticism of Thurrock the club or the fans, or indifference to the club's fate, just bald fact.

There's no "one size fits all" solution for football clubs at this level. It's been a while since I've been at Ship Lane, but if there is a fan committee ready to take the club forward at Essex Senior or even amateur level then they are very low profile.

Sadly perusing the local media and one or two forums this week, the reaction to the club's resignation from the league has been, beyond the core regulars, either an indifferent shrug, or resignation to fate.

And at this very moment in time I don't want my club to survive at a good level. I simply want it to survive at any level and continue playng as Dulwich Hamlet football Club, into it's 126th year and beyond.

 

[steeplejack]

I also don't think you're grasping what I'm saying...in that if the owner really cared about the club he had built from scratch he wouldn't have offered it up to the highest bidder, but offered it a fans consorttium, to see how they fare, on a small/peppercorn rent. Unless he seriously needs the money for something else then that is what he should have really done if he cared about the club he built, and not just his own ego and his own club. "Game's over, it's my ball and I'm going home" syndrome.

And in this judgement I think you're completely mistaken.

But...we're not going to agree on it so let's move on. All the best to Dulwich and I'm sure it won't be long before you're back home and playing at a decent level.

 

[B.I.G]

I agree with Mishi.*




*Sorry Mishi.

 

[PartisanDulwich]

^ Didn't see that coming
Next stop Pyongyang

 

[B.I.G]

^ Didn't see that coming
Next stop Pyongyang

I'm sure you are aware of Mishi's two rules.