Drugs prove there is no soul!

[magneze]

A theory espoused in a New Scientist article about drugs:

Psychedelic drugs provide some of the best evidence we have that the mind is the brain; that our thoughts, beliefs, and perceptions are created by chemistry.

and

Throughout history many people have believed in a soul or spirit that can leave the body and even survive after death. Yet science has long known that this cannot be so.

Full article:
http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/journalism/NSintox.htm
This was all part of a fascinating article into altered states. It also states that this is why drugs are seens as a "window on the soul" - because it's entirely chemical... Interesting stuff I thought.

 

[girasol]

So, in short, if I take lots of drugs, will that...

Hey, hang on a minute, I thought you were off work cause you were sick, instead you're advocating the use of drugs for soulful purposes?

 

[magneze]

Tis true, I've had a lot of time on my hands today. I'm not advocating the use of drugs for soulful purposes, but I thought the article raises some interesting points.

 

[Jorum]

I think the main point of the argument is against those who believe that the mind is seperate from the physical body. That it is somehow something more spiritual and not dependant on the brain.

Drugs show quite clearly that the brain is the mind.
Substances that have a purely chemical action on the brain can grossly distort our perception, reasoning and personality,
Also stopping the supply of oxygen to the brain shuts down our "mind" within minutes.

Not to mention the huge effects on perception, thinking and personality physical damage to the brain can cause.

 

[girasol]

Trying to prove beyond doubt that there's no life after death...

 

[Brainaddict]

Trying to prove beyond doubt that there's no life after death...

Why would anyone bother doing that? Just sit around and wait for someone to prove that there *is* life after death. Until they do that, assume there isn't. S'what I do. I'm still waiting.

 

[magneze]

There can't be if the mind and body are one. The article also discusses whether our "normal" consciousness is in fact normal at all. Maybe we evolved our current consciousness for survival purposes and drugs can give us a window into alternatives which are, in fact, truer representations.

 

[Brainaddict]

I've thought a similar thing about drugs btw - they show you that all the so-called 'spiritual' stuff is as much a chemical reaction as anything else that happens in your body.

 

[girasol]

Why would anyone bother doing that? Just sit around and wait for someone to prove that there *is* life after death. Until they do that, assume there isn't. S'what I do. I'm still waiting.

mmm, don't know, just seems more interesting to think that there *is* life after death, instead of just assuming that there isn't...

Just imagine, being able to fly around!

 

[Fruitloop]

I like Wittgenstien's takeon the life after death issue (from the Tractatus) - there's no life after death because you can't conceive of any experience outside life, in the same way that you can't imagine seeing anything outside your visual field.

The more drugs I take, the more I incline to the buddhist idea that there's no self, just a collection of memories, sensations and impressions. I don't see how much of this could persist after the brain that records it goes mouldy, but then if there's no 'I' anyway then there's nothing to lose.

Spirituality (or whatever you want to call it) is as much a function of the brain as any other kind of experience, but I don't think it's any less real for all that.

 

[magneze]

After death I think that you only really live on in other people's memories.

 

[Brainaddict]

After death I think that you only really live on in other people's memories.

and one day everyone you know will be dead (which band sang that?)

think it's a Vines lyric.

 

[girasol]

After death I think that you only really live on in other people's memories.

So, the more famous someone is the more 'alive' they are after death? Marylin, Elvis and Jesus will live forever but people with no friends/family won't...?

I really can't get my head around not being around after death, but if I'm not, I guess at least I won't be disappointed...

 

[Brainaddict]

mmm, don't know, just seems more interesting to think that there *is* life after death, instead of just assuming that there isn't...

Just imagine, being able to fly around!

as long as you realise that's not a very sound argument.
It would be a more *interesting* world if we could will everything we needed into existence and pixies lived in our gardens - doesn't make it something worth discussing except in fantasy fiction.

 

[magneze]

The theory about the "window on the soul" is also very interesting. I wonder if this is why people who take drugs tend to gravitate towards one another - they've each had a glimpse through this window.

 

[girasol]

as long as you realise that's not a very sound argument.
It would be a more *interesting* world if we could will everything we needed into existence and pixies lived in our gardens - doesn't make it something worth discussing except in fantasy fiction.

Isn't it a sound argument? If it hasn't been proved one way or another, it's all speculation either way, isn't it?

Maybe all the electromagnetic activity that happens in the brain does linger forever (like light travelling through space)...

 

[Structaural]

Susan Blackmore - you can bet she's never taken any psychedelics.

 

[888]

But she's got green hair!


When the idea of the seperate self is realised to be an illusion, the idea of that seperate self carrying on after death doesn't matter so much anymore. I still believe in free will though.

 

[magneze]

Whoa! I hadn't noticed that. I reckon she knows exactly what she's talking about ...

 

[888]

He likened different states of consciousness to different paradigms in science and proposed the creation of “state specific sciences”; new sciences which would be done by scientists working in altered states and communicating their findings to others in those states. These new sciences might only have limited application but this makes the point that our normal state, constrained as it is by the particular chemistry evolution has given us, may not be the only way to try to understand the universe.

I need this job! Altered state chemistry...

 

[MarkMark]

I don't see drugs a disproving a soul in any way at all - but then I don't see much proof for one either, anywhere.

 

[Sacri Liege]

I don't see proof or disproof either.

But if all our consciousnesses are, are the physical relationships between varying states of connectivity, then it could just as easily be that anything that moves/shifts/changes has a form of consciousness. The wind, the grass, the spiral of the galaxy, the explosion of a nuclear bomb.

Who can say what exists or doesn't exist according to its own terms of existence, without being that thing? We are just molecules moving about randomly after all, nothing special here.

 

[888]

We are just molecules moving about randomly after all, nothing special here.

That's a useless perspective because from our own point of view we do actually have to decide things for ourselves - we can't just say "Oh, I'm just randomly drifting about with no purpose" - that would in fact be a decision.

 

[rorymac]

I think the main point of the argument is against those who believe that the mind is seperate from the physical body. That it is somehow something more spiritual and not dependant on the brain.

Drugs show quite clearly that the brain is the mind.
Substances that have a purely chemical action on the brain can grossly distort our perception, reasoning and personality,
Also stopping the supply of oxygen to the brain shuts down our "mind" within minutes.

Not to mention the huge effects on perception, thinking and personality physical damage to the brain can cause.

This post is bloody rubbish on every level

 

[Sacri Liege]

That's a useless perspective because from our own point of view we do actually have to decide things for ourselves - we can't just say "Oh, I'm just randomly drifting about with no purpose" - that would in fact be a decision.

Yes, and that's the point. How do you know that a lightning storm doesn't decide things from it's point of view?

I am looking at our function from the outside, just the way we look at other phenomenae.

 

[Ganjarist]

Pointless!
Anyone can prove or disprove anything by having a baised starting point, basing the study on a premiss that science has proven that 'there is no afterlife' makes the conclusions about the Mind worthless.
A dozen acid tabs would do her some good.

 

[Jorum]

This post is bloody rubbish on every level

Err..why?
Care to expand on why my post is rubbish? Or just because you dont happen to agree with the comment?

 

[rorymac]

I think the main point of the argument is against those who believe that the mind is seperate from the physical body. That it is somehow something more spiritual and not dependant on the brain.

A fella is entitled to believe that to be fair.

Drugs show quite clearly that the brain is the mind.

Hang on a minute there now I ..........

Substances that have a purely chemical action on the brain can grossly distort our perception, reasoning and personality,

A fella would have to agree with this to be fair

Also stopping the supply of oxygen to the brain shuts down our "mind" within minutes.

Will you wait a minute there now please I ..

Not to mention the huge effects on perception, thinking and personality physical damage to the brain can cause.

A fella would be an awgul gom if he didn't agree with that to be fair.

Conclusion ..... N/A

 

[gnoriac]

This post is bloody rubbish on every level

I was thinking along the lines of 'simplistic reductionism', but as always rory's so much more eloquent than I.

 

[Purdie]

Maybe all the electromagnetic activity that happens in the brain does linger forever (like light travelling through space)...

You mean the light that travels through space and enters the hollow that is your pupil? Bit like our own personal black hole they is.