Drug dealing scumbags

[phildwyer]

C'mon phil, like I said in post #206;

"I'd like to see the basis for your contention " "criminals" taken as a whole, are indeed disproportionately black in Britain and America." please."

This is for the UK. The situation is even worse in the USA. Do you want proof, or will you now accept that I am right?

"The process of criminalisation continues; for example, 24.6% of the prison population are from Black communities; including foreign nationals, the average population of African and Caribbean prisoners has risen since 1994, by 113% and for Asian prisoners by 75% as compared with a 34% rise for White prisoners; there is a greater likelihood of custodial sentences, especially for first time offences; Black African or Caribbean people are also six times more likely to be arrested although Asian people are only slightly more likely to be arrested than White people."

Source:

http://www.blink.org.uk/bm/manifesto_section.asp?catid=22

 

[ViolentPanda]

This is for the UK. The situation is even worse in the USA. Do you want proof, or will you now accept that I am right?

"The process of criminalisation continues; for example, 24.6% of the prison population are from Black communities; including foreign nationals, the average population of African and Caribbean prisoners has risen since 1994, by 113% and for Asian prisoners by 75% as compared with a 34% rise for White prisoners; there is a greater likelihood of custodial sentences, especially for first time offences; Black African or Caribbean people are also six times more likely to be arrested although Asian people are only slightly more likely to be arrested than White people."

Source:

http://www.blink.org.uk/bm/manifesto_section.asp?catid=22

All well and good, but if you remember the context in which I originally asked the question (all those long days ago) you'll recall that the context was that I contended that the black prison population in Britain was made up mostly of people who'd been convicted of certain specific types of crime, while you contended that "criminals taken as a whole, are indeed disproportionately black in Britain and America.".

I'll accept you're right when you support your contention phil, not when you post a link to some general blather.

Be a good chap and google a bit deeper next time!

As for the USA per se, I don't disagree with your contention, but the blatantness of racism over there is far more open than here, and there isn't the "colour divide" to different types of criminal endeavour there that still exists over here.

 

[phildwyer]

All well and good, but if you remember the context in which I originally asked the question (all those long days ago) you'll recall that the context was that I contended that the black prison population in Britain was made up mostly of people who'd been convicted of certain specific types of crime, while you contended that "criminals taken as a whole, are indeed disproportionately black in Britain and America.".

I'll accept you're right when you support your contention phil, not when you post a link to some general blather.

Be a good chap and google a bit deeper next time!

As for the USA per se, I don't disagree with your contention, but the blatantness of racism over there is far more open than here, and there isn't the "colour divide" to different types of criminal endeavour there that still exists over here.

Do you know what "taken as a whole" means? It means "en masse," or as a group. So clearly, taken as a whole, criminals in Britain and the USA are disproportionately black. As you must know, so I'm not going to bother arguing with you about this any more.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Do you know what "taken as a whole" means? It means "en masse," or as a group. So clearly, taken as a whole, criminals in Britain and the USA are disproportionately black. As you must know, so I'm not going to bother arguing with you about this any more.

I know what "taken as a whole" means. I also know what it is, it's the same generalisation I disagreed with so many posts ago. It's a figleaf for not digging any deeper than the first page of google.

By the way, what your link shows isn't that "criminals taken as a whole, are indeed disproportionately black in Britain and America.".

What it actually shows is that convicted criminals are disproportionately black, and that the black communities in Britain and the US experience greater criminalisation than their white counterparts.

To say that criminals in the UK and US en masse are disproportionately black is pure unquantifiable and unsupported soothsaying on your part.

Unless, by criminals (those engaged in and/or guilty of crime), you're now going to claim you only ever meant convicted (as in found guilty by a court of law) criminals, because that would be humbug of the highest order, wouldn't it?

I look forward to your not bothering arguing any more, but somehow I can't see your ego allowing that.

 

[quimcunx]

This is for the UK. The situation is even worse in the USA. Do you want proof, or will you now accept that I am right?

"The process of criminalisation continues; for example, 24.6% of the prison population are from Black communities; including foreign nationals, the average population of African and Caribbean prisoners has risen since 1994, by 113% and for Asian prisoners by 75% as compared with a 34% rise for White prisoners; there is a greater likelihood of custodial sentences, especially for first time offences; Black African or Caribbean people are also six times more likely to be arrested although Asian people are only slightly more likely to be arrested than White people."

Source:

http://www.blink.org.uk/bm/manifesto_section.asp?catid=22

I'd just like to make a point on the above quote.

Firstly in reference to the 'six times more likely' I recall reading in the Economist that black people are more likely to be stopped by the police, once stopped they are more likely to be arrested, once arrested more likely to be charged, once charged more likely to be kept on remand, more likely to be convicted, more likely to have a custodial sentence, given longer sentences.

Secondly This quote does not say that 24.6% of 'criminals' are black. It says that 24.6% of the 'prison population' are from black communities. It does not specify what that population is made up of. People on remand, definitely, even for all I know, asylum seekers. It includes foreign nationals. I don't know who these are exactly but they can only count as part of the prison population, not as british criminals.

It is impossible to tell from this quote what percentage of british criminals are black, or even 'from black communities'. If black people are kept on remand more often, and given longer sentences then this too will skew any correlation between the prison population and the criminal population. They will be further skewed when you multiply these remands and sentence lengths with repeat offending.

Also bear in mind that corporate crimes are rarely prosecuted. Theft from workplaces such as Investment Banks are rarely prosecuted. These very generally white people are criminals too, they're just rarely part of the prison population.

 

[detective-boy]

Also bear in mind that corporate crimes are rarely prosecuted. Theft from workplaces such as Investment Banks are rarely prosecuted.

I would be surprised if the amount of corporate fraud stuff which gets into the crime statistics at all is out of single figure percentages, to be honest. It's massively underreported and massivle underprosecuted - suspects are identified, it is proved (usually to the criminal standard) ... and the person is sacked (or even paid off) without ever being charged.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I would be surprised if the amount of corporate fraud stuff which gets into the crime statistics at all is out of single figure percentages, to be honest. It's massively underreported and massivle underprosecuted - suspects are identified, it is proved (usually to the criminal standard) ... and the person is sacked (or even paid off) without ever being charged.

Yep, companies may prefer their own summary justice to exposing their ineptitude to the shareholders and the market.
The result being that the fraudster may be free (and even supported by a good reference) to move on to another business and do the same thing again.

I haven't yet decided whether this is reprehensible, amusing or both.

 

[detective-boy]

I haven't yet decided whether this is reprehensible, amusing or both.

It's pathetic.

If advertising for your stolen goods back "no questions asked" is a specific criminal offence (which it is - s.17 (I think) Theft Act 1968), presumably on the basis that it would encourage thieves, then failing to report a mega-fraud to avoid company embarrassment should also be, on the same basis.

There is a reasonable case to be made that an individual should have the choice whether or not to report a crime they are a victim of, but when the victim is a corporation then there should be an obligation as part of corporate law ensuring good governance. Money laundering suspicions have to be reported.

 

[quimcunx]

Ooh, well said. Of course money laundering suspicions have to be reported because they might relate to 'bad' criminals rather than 'nice' criminals.

 

[detective-boy]

Ooh, well said. Of course money laundering suspicions have to be reported because they might relate to 'bad' criminals rather than 'nice' criminals.

Actually, they have already caught quite a few "nice" criminals - solicitors, accountants and the like ...

 

[Winot]

Actually, they have already caught quite a few "nice" criminals - solicitors, accountants and the like ...

Actually the way in which the regulations are framed catches those who are careless/disorganised rather than criminal.

 

[editor]

So clearly, taken as a whole, criminals in Britain and the USA are disproportionately black.

Have you forgotten your deal about you not posting in the Brixton forum, phil?

 

[phildwyer]

Have you forgotten your deal about you not posting in the Brixton forum, phil?

Check the date on that post.

 

[editor]

Apols.

 

[quimcunx]

PS on the black population in prisons quote.

I wonder if mixed race inmates are counted as white, mixed race or members of the black community, as I notice they are not mentioned. I have my suspicions if someone in prison has one white parent, one west Indian parent they count as being part of the black community...

 

[detective-boy]

Actually the way in which the regulations are framed catches those who are careless/disorganised rather than criminal.

How do you mean?

 

[detective-boy]

I wonder if mixed race inmates are counted as white, mixed race or members of the black community, as I notice they are not mentioned.

I think they are probably now counted on the basis of self classification.

 

[ViolentPanda]

It's pathetic.

If advertising for your stolen goods back "no questions asked" is a specific criminal offence (which it is - s.17 (I think) Theft Act 1968), presumably on the basis that it would encourage thieves, then failing to report a mega-fraud to avoid company embarrassment should also be, on the same basis.

There is a reasonable case to be made that an individual should have the choice whether or not to report a crime they are a victim of, but when the victim is a corporation then there should be an obligation as part of corporate law ensuring good governance. Money laundering suspicions have to be reported.

I agree with you that corporations should have a legal obligation to place corporate fraud before the law, but unfortunately I doubt it will happen, as we both know that corporate responsibility (even self-responsibility) tends to be observed more in spin than in actuality.

They will always play the game with their eye to shareholder reaction rather than to "the rules", until and unless "the rules" are constructed in such a way that it becomes more onerous to break them, than to follow them, and we know that's not going to happen under any of our current political parties, neo-liberals that they are.

 

[likesfish]

also corp fraud is very expensive and complicated to investigate and prosecute
the SFO isn't doing to well at the moment

 

[detective-boy]

the SFO isn't doing to well at the moment

They make it more complicated than it needs to be - they are hopeless at setting investigative parameters and, as a result, they keep wandering off in ever more complex directions. Its introduction was an example of "Empire-building" at it's worst!

 

[Winot]

How do you mean?

I've sent you a PM, as I suspect my reply would be taking us into realms too off-topic and boring for words.