who do you think should have rights Pickman's Model? or don't you think they're important?
Don't let the right dominate opposition to Big Brother
- Thread starter moon23
- Start date
Pickman's model
sunset spires and twilight woods
everyone should have rights, only some people should have more than others.
not the individual's rights?
Pickman's model
sunset spires and twilight woods
you asked me what i think. not how to punctuate
Pickman's model
sunset spires and twilight woods
he's run away
if I wanted cryptic i'd buy a newspaper
Pickman's model
sunset spires and twilight woods
go on then
go on where?
you seem very angry this morning, but I suppose that's your right
you seem very angry this morning, but I suppose that's your right
Lemon Eddy
Disliked by dwyer
Identity cards were first suggested by Michael Howard, when John Major was PM. I don't see how anyone could argue they're purely a left or right wind idea. THey're as loved by right wing dictators as they are by left wing politburos.
This should not be a partisan issue. This should purely be opposed on the grounds it is an immensely fucking stupid idea, that achieves nothing positive, yet incurs all manner of negatives. Infringement of civil liberties, huge fucking cost, and like any poorly designed security system it can actually be of benefit to people who wish to do something criminal.
Seriously, on this one put aside the bickering and just fight to see it binned.
danny la rouge
Ninja swords for all disabled people
Which amounts to the same thing. I don't think they're lying or being devious; I think they really think it constitutes balance.
Idaho
continuity character
Always created to choruses of "class traitor", "social fascist", "reformist", etc. and dissolved soon after due to in-fighting and dispute.
Azrael
circling Airstrip One
True enough. (Although Michael Howard was never as "right wing" as he was touted. Just like Labour, he attacked due process, including an unhinged "redefining" of the right to silence, while having no appetite for punishment.) But this particular ID card scheme is driven by left-wing authoritarianism. If we have another driven by right-wing ideas, I'll criticise the right.
If partisanship is wrong, can people please stop using "right wing" and "authoritarian" as synonyms? The left isn't naturally on the side of liberty, any more than the right is.
Natural or Legal rights?
What Labour themselves brand Liberal Paternalism. The idea that you should have economic liberalism within a framework of a paternal state that knows best. It does have leftist tendencies, although we would just be debating terms. Perhaps we could have a discussion about what left or right wing means from a historical perspective? That would be interesting
Libertarians would not like this notion, but there are plenty of authoritarian conservatives who thing the idea of a state run ID card scheme are a good thing. For instance people like Michael Howard that tried to launch an ID card scheme in the 90s. It's not just a simple as a liberal right/left vs authoritarian right/left thing when it comes to ID cards as there are some technophobes authoritarians or neo-luddites who thing they are a bad thing too (although this a minority of persons)
The truth is this is scheme born of civil servant bureaucracy rather than left or right ideals. The civil service of course wants a big state as that represents an expansion of it’s own bureaucracy over the private sphere of our lives. Architects of the scheme just offered it to neo-labour during the terror panic years and the grasped at it as a means of looking tough. This particular scheme was thought up in the 1930s though.
Azrael
circling Airstrip One
Agreed. Some conservatives certainly support the ID card scheme. (I would question their conservatism, since they're not conserving the current relationship between the individual and the state, and the new relationship is a revolution with no clear benefits.) I'm sure plenty in the civil service are into it for selfish reasons as well.
But the ideological drive for the current scheme is the idea of a state possessed of special goodness, which has no need of restraints as a result. This is a "progressive" tick that's been with right down from the French revolution. Traditional English Tories have mistrusted the state: just witness their aversion to state-run police up until the early 20th century.
Liberal paternalism, if that's your preferred term, is just another brand of idealism. Idealism vs pragmatism is certainly a split. Conservatism's been infected with idealism at least since it became obsessed by the purifying power of market capitalism. But left-wing idealism retains its own unique characteristics, ones that can easily be turned in an authoritarian direction.
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