Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Rachamim, I'm surprised you care to dignify this idiots contributions with a response.
Don't date Arabs! They're the enemy!
- Thread starter Spion
- Start date
Rachamim, I'm surprised you care to dignify this idiots contributions with a response.
DASH: "DASH is not sure that Rachamim's statement that 'No Aboriginal of today would be remotely recognisable to an ancestor of even 1,000 years ago' is correct.": It is true. Physically of course he would recognise the similarity of most, not all because of intermarriage among some groups. However, culturally most things have changed drastically.
"When Rachamim says that there is a consensus on this issue what does he mean? A consensus of whom?": I mean in terms of the anthropological community. I will not pretend that I am very well versed on ALL the hundreds of cultural groupings in and around Australia ("around" in terms of Tasmania where they are practically extinct and the Torres Strait) but I do have enough of a foundation on this issue to confidently make this statement.
Anthropologists love Australia, I remember in university spending much time on the land and its indigenous people. I also easily remember the lament I heard from different professors and grad students on how frustrating it was to have to deal with such an interesting place and groups of people and have to face the reality of the European holocaust visited upon the land(s).
Even pristine cultures that have probably never seen a whiteman, such as uncontacted tribes in Irin Jaya or the Amazon have some minimal level of exposure through trade and other contact with groups that have had more than moderate contact. I have spoken about the American, his name is Kelly but i cannot recall his surname, who lives on Bali.
This man runs jaunts into Irin to meet what he calls uncontacted tribes (there is some debate as to the mans veracity,etc). I saw 2 documentaries on him and in the 2nd they see a small group of males and after finally establishing contact , the elder male had a bracelet of PLASTIC beads.
There is a huge difference between a bracelet and lack of total recognition but the point is that even the most pristine groups have had some level of cultural assimilation. How much more in a place like Australia?
There are individuals and a handful of organisations that truly seek to preserve a vanishing way of life and in some cases restore that which has been lost BUT to a large degree that will be impossible to recover. Hypothetically, if we were able to transport an Aborigine from 1000 years back to the Outback of today, what would he recognise? Camels? Canetoads? Even physically the environment has been irreprably altered. The Peoples of the region have been effected much more heavily. Metals, plastics, textiles, foodstuffs, and so on.
"The Hebrew spoken todayy...": There are 2 forms of the language today. There is Biblical, or Classical Hebrew, and Modern Hebrew.
Classical, "Eevreet" AKA "Ivrit" is EXACTLY the same as that spoken for weell over 2500 years. Modern Hebrew, or "Eevreet Chaya" is a language formulated in the 19th Century CE/AD. It is of course largely based on Classical with modernisms incorporated. Grammar and Structure in genral are taken from Classical. An ancient Jew would read it perfectly but the modernisms naturally would be a cipher. Words like "telefone" and "televiziyah" would be incomprehensible to anyone form the past.
While Modern Hebrew is spoken by only a few million of us slightly less than 90% of World Jewry understands Classical and most of that 90% speak it as well.
A modern Israeli-Jew would be able to fully understand an ancient Jew because in Israel, even secular Jewish students are compelled to take classes on Classical as well as the Bible as history. It is SOME of the Jews in the Disporah who might not be conversant with an ancient Jew but even then the vast majority would still have tha bility to communicate easily with that person.
Interestingly, Classical Arabic is VERY different from Modern Arabic and Clasical is extremely difficult for Modern speakers to comprehend.
"Bantu." The Bantu are not a single People at all. Bantu is a language group. While theoretically where WAS once a single proto group we have no proof of it whatsoever. We do know that when the Bantu spread it was with many disparate groups that belonged to the language group.
"Many so called "Bush Peoples" were assimilated by attrition, etc. when Bantus encroached into their territories.": The way of the world. Even with the most traditional of "Bush People" you see metal knifes and implements, modern textiles, and so on. They have existed in symbiotic relationships with Bantus since the intial encroachment. Bantu saw/see them as inferior and sadly this sentiment has spread to some "Bush People" so that those who attend govt. schools or exist in govt. settlements as in parts of Botswana try and distance themselves from their customs.
"DASH questions that if Jews had not arrived in Europe would the signnificant achievments in many fields by Jews would have even occurred.": Well, that is a good question although it could be construed as bait since one could argue, if they agree with the negative premise there, that the achievements were due to European influences and not on Jewish outlooks and values,etc.
Well, I would offer that outside of the Khalifa of Andalus (Islamic Iberia) and very brief periods in what is now Iraq, Muslims have tried to supress anything but religious study. In the two afore mentioned exceptions one sees incredible secular achievment by both Jew and Arab. Europe on the other hand leaned towards liberalism after the Rennaisance and this climate allowed for Jews to delve into non-religious spheres.
So, yes, being in Europe DID lead to these achievements but not because it was Europe per se but that Europe grew more liberal. Had the Arab World shown a similar tack it would have certainly happend there as well.
Remember, we were in Europe before most European Cultures had een developed. When the first Jews moved east out of Latin Europe after the Middle Ages they found very ancient Jewish Communities on the Rhine and elsewhere. When Rome marched they had camp followers that soemtimes equalled twice the number of soldiers. Many of these followers were traders and slave merchants. Many of that demographic were Jews. Germania was a great theater of war for Rome and so only ignorant people would imagine that Jews did not exist in central and eastern Europe prior to the Renaissance.
"When Rachamim says that there is a consensus on this issue what does he mean? A consensus of whom?": I mean in terms of the anthropological community. I will not pretend that I am very well versed on ALL the hundreds of cultural groupings in and around Australia ("around" in terms of Tasmania where they are practically extinct and the Torres Strait) but I do have enough of a foundation on this issue to confidently make this statement.
Anthropologists love Australia, I remember in university spending much time on the land and its indigenous people. I also easily remember the lament I heard from different professors and grad students on how frustrating it was to have to deal with such an interesting place and groups of people and have to face the reality of the European holocaust visited upon the land(s).
Even pristine cultures that have probably never seen a whiteman, such as uncontacted tribes in Irin Jaya or the Amazon have some minimal level of exposure through trade and other contact with groups that have had more than moderate contact. I have spoken about the American, his name is Kelly but i cannot recall his surname, who lives on Bali.
This man runs jaunts into Irin to meet what he calls uncontacted tribes (there is some debate as to the mans veracity,etc). I saw 2 documentaries on him and in the 2nd they see a small group of males and after finally establishing contact , the elder male had a bracelet of PLASTIC beads.
There is a huge difference between a bracelet and lack of total recognition but the point is that even the most pristine groups have had some level of cultural assimilation. How much more in a place like Australia?
There are individuals and a handful of organisations that truly seek to preserve a vanishing way of life and in some cases restore that which has been lost BUT to a large degree that will be impossible to recover. Hypothetically, if we were able to transport an Aborigine from 1000 years back to the Outback of today, what would he recognise? Camels? Canetoads? Even physically the environment has been irreprably altered. The Peoples of the region have been effected much more heavily. Metals, plastics, textiles, foodstuffs, and so on.
"The Hebrew spoken todayy...": There are 2 forms of the language today. There is Biblical, or Classical Hebrew, and Modern Hebrew.
Classical, "Eevreet" AKA "Ivrit" is EXACTLY the same as that spoken for weell over 2500 years. Modern Hebrew, or "Eevreet Chaya" is a language formulated in the 19th Century CE/AD. It is of course largely based on Classical with modernisms incorporated. Grammar and Structure in genral are taken from Classical. An ancient Jew would read it perfectly but the modernisms naturally would be a cipher. Words like "telefone" and "televiziyah" would be incomprehensible to anyone form the past.
While Modern Hebrew is spoken by only a few million of us slightly less than 90% of World Jewry understands Classical and most of that 90% speak it as well.
A modern Israeli-Jew would be able to fully understand an ancient Jew because in Israel, even secular Jewish students are compelled to take classes on Classical as well as the Bible as history. It is SOME of the Jews in the Disporah who might not be conversant with an ancient Jew but even then the vast majority would still have tha bility to communicate easily with that person.
Interestingly, Classical Arabic is VERY different from Modern Arabic and Clasical is extremely difficult for Modern speakers to comprehend.
"Bantu." The Bantu are not a single People at all. Bantu is a language group. While theoretically where WAS once a single proto group we have no proof of it whatsoever. We do know that when the Bantu spread it was with many disparate groups that belonged to the language group.
"Many so called "Bush Peoples" were assimilated by attrition, etc. when Bantus encroached into their territories.": The way of the world. Even with the most traditional of "Bush People" you see metal knifes and implements, modern textiles, and so on. They have existed in symbiotic relationships with Bantus since the intial encroachment. Bantu saw/see them as inferior and sadly this sentiment has spread to some "Bush People" so that those who attend govt. schools or exist in govt. settlements as in parts of Botswana try and distance themselves from their customs.
"DASH questions that if Jews had not arrived in Europe would the signnificant achievments in many fields by Jews would have even occurred.": Well, that is a good question although it could be construed as bait since one could argue, if they agree with the negative premise there, that the achievements were due to European influences and not on Jewish outlooks and values,etc.
Well, I would offer that outside of the Khalifa of Andalus (Islamic Iberia) and very brief periods in what is now Iraq, Muslims have tried to supress anything but religious study. In the two afore mentioned exceptions one sees incredible secular achievment by both Jew and Arab. Europe on the other hand leaned towards liberalism after the Rennaisance and this climate allowed for Jews to delve into non-religious spheres.
So, yes, being in Europe DID lead to these achievements but not because it was Europe per se but that Europe grew more liberal. Had the Arab World shown a similar tack it would have certainly happend there as well.
Remember, we were in Europe before most European Cultures had een developed. When the first Jews moved east out of Latin Europe after the Middle Ages they found very ancient Jewish Communities on the Rhine and elsewhere. When Rome marched they had camp followers that soemtimes equalled twice the number of soldiers. Many of these followers were traders and slave merchants. Many of that demographic were Jews. Germania was a great theater of war for Rome and so only ignorant people would imagine that Jews did not exist in central and eastern Europe prior to the Renaissance.
DASH: "Where are the ancient equivalents of Freud, Spinoza, and Einstein.": Philo? Crescas? Albos?
In mathamatics alone the list would be too long to post here but let me throw some names out to you to give you just a general idea:
I) Yoel of Basra, lived in what is now Iraq in the late 9th and early 10th Centuries CE/AD. Wrote the 1st Arabic treatise on the Astrolobe. You might have heard of it because Chaucer translated it into English as "The Treatise on the Astrolobe" in 1380 CE/AD.
Yoel also wrote a landmark book on Solar and Lunar Eclipses
II) Avraham Bar Hiyya HaNasee, also writing in Arabic wrote a landmark book called, in English, " Treatise on Mensuration (spelling is correct in case you are not too familiar with higher mathematics) and Calculations." This was the book that introduced Trigonometry to Europe although not written there.
His book "The Shape of the Earth" not only offered that the planet is round but gave a nearly perfect calculation of the distance from Earth to Moon and while he based that work on the P'tolemic System he made it his own by tuning it up.
He wrote a 3rd landmark book on Calendar Intercalation.
III) Yitchak ibn Saeed wrote the "Alphonsine Tables" in 1272 CE/ADwhich improved on an earlier book by 12 Jewish Astronomers in Cordova, who themselves were led by the Jew ibn Arzakali (AKA Azarchel). The earlier work was titled Toledo Tables."
IV) Rabbi Levee Ben Gershom (AKA Gersonides) discovered the Law of Sines and wrote a book entiled "Law of Sines." His tables were correct to the decimal. He invented a device called "Jacob's Staff" which wasthe rule in Eclipse Study for more than 300 years. He also managed to devise his own system of Eclipse Tables independant of the P'tolemic System.
He was also the first person to have used Camera Obscura in his studies!
V) Avraham Zacuto was the first person to have made a copper Astrolobe. He was alos the Court Astronomer to King John II of Portugal (granted, this Jew WAS in Europe but not nativbe to it and only went there well into adulthood)
VI) Abu Otman Sahl ibn Basheer ibn Habib ibn Hani wrote the revolutionary treatise on Algebra, in Arabic, entitled "al Jabar wal -Mookahballah" in the late 8th Century CE/AD.
VII) In the same era, also in Arabic, Sind Ben Ali write a revolutionary commentary on the Elements of Euclid, entitled "Elements of Euclid" in English.
VIII) Again, same area and also in Arabic, Sahl Rabbani al Tabbari who was one of the world's greatest minds in Geometry.
IX) In the late 12th Century CE/AD a Jew who also published in Arabic (and also Farsi) named Shmuel ibn 'Abbas was the Court Geometer to Sultan Abu al Fat Shah Ghazzi
X) The great ancient philospher Sa'adia who expounded on "Reason" and "Dogma." He wrote in Greek, Latin, Hebrew, and even a bit in Arabic.
Just a glimpse but hopefully enough to show you you are wrong.
In mathamatics alone the list would be too long to post here but let me throw some names out to you to give you just a general idea:
I) Yoel of Basra, lived in what is now Iraq in the late 9th and early 10th Centuries CE/AD. Wrote the 1st Arabic treatise on the Astrolobe. You might have heard of it because Chaucer translated it into English as "The Treatise on the Astrolobe" in 1380 CE/AD.
Yoel also wrote a landmark book on Solar and Lunar Eclipses
II) Avraham Bar Hiyya HaNasee, also writing in Arabic wrote a landmark book called, in English, " Treatise on Mensuration (spelling is correct in case you are not too familiar with higher mathematics) and Calculations." This was the book that introduced Trigonometry to Europe although not written there.
His book "The Shape of the Earth" not only offered that the planet is round but gave a nearly perfect calculation of the distance from Earth to Moon and while he based that work on the P'tolemic System he made it his own by tuning it up.
He wrote a 3rd landmark book on Calendar Intercalation.
III) Yitchak ibn Saeed wrote the "Alphonsine Tables" in 1272 CE/ADwhich improved on an earlier book by 12 Jewish Astronomers in Cordova, who themselves were led by the Jew ibn Arzakali (AKA Azarchel). The earlier work was titled Toledo Tables."
IV) Rabbi Levee Ben Gershom (AKA Gersonides) discovered the Law of Sines and wrote a book entiled "Law of Sines." His tables were correct to the decimal. He invented a device called "Jacob's Staff" which wasthe rule in Eclipse Study for more than 300 years. He also managed to devise his own system of Eclipse Tables independant of the P'tolemic System.
He was also the first person to have used Camera Obscura in his studies!
V) Avraham Zacuto was the first person to have made a copper Astrolobe. He was alos the Court Astronomer to King John II of Portugal (granted, this Jew WAS in Europe but not nativbe to it and only went there well into adulthood)
VI) Abu Otman Sahl ibn Basheer ibn Habib ibn Hani wrote the revolutionary treatise on Algebra, in Arabic, entitled "al Jabar wal -Mookahballah" in the late 8th Century CE/AD.
VII) In the same era, also in Arabic, Sind Ben Ali write a revolutionary commentary on the Elements of Euclid, entitled "Elements of Euclid" in English.
VIII) Again, same area and also in Arabic, Sahl Rabbani al Tabbari who was one of the world's greatest minds in Geometry.
IX) In the late 12th Century CE/AD a Jew who also published in Arabic (and also Farsi) named Shmuel ibn 'Abbas was the Court Geometer to Sultan Abu al Fat Shah Ghazzi
X) The great ancient philospher Sa'adia who expounded on "Reason" and "Dogma." He wrote in Greek, Latin, Hebrew, and even a bit in Arabic.
Just a glimpse but hopefully enough to show you you are wrong.
DASH: "Both cousin marrage and Honour Killing occurr in the same part of thre world. DASH imagines it is not just coincidence.": Sorry but that is non-sensical. First, we also marry our nieces and as I probably said a niece by your own sister is considered the perfect wife. However, what would THAT ever have to do with Honour Killing?
The matter of Honour and Family? That wopuld be an extreme stretch to say the least. We put our women on pedestals. We are taught, via the Talmud, that "G-D counts a woman's tears." To kill her over her making eye contact with a male is far, far, far from showing her respect and love.
Historically, we could only kill women who committed adultery and even then a strict trial was required. It has been eons since this was practiced, literally eons. Arab Honour Killings occur even now.
LittleBaby: "If Catholics were to establish Latin as a language that would be much the same as Rachamim's claim as Hebrew as a common denominator that would afford recoognition between Jews from greatly differeing time periods.": First, Latin is already used by Catholics although not universally (since Vatican II in the 60s). The Latin enhrined in Church liturgy is not the same as the Latin vernacular spoken by ancient Romans, if that is your point.
Secondly, Romans were a People, not a religion. Catholics are of course a religion, NOT a People. Ergo your rationale is deeply flawed.
Third, Catholics even have their own homeland despite their being merely a religion (the Vatican, AKA Holy See is independant of Italy). It does not require any rationale since it is not challenged by Italy or the vast, vast majority of its people. Israel is of course a far different story.
When Rome was disoslved the lingua franca was Greek, not Latin. Indeed, the Latin that WAS spoken more closely resembled modren day French rrather than Catholic Latin.
"Cornish was/is not a liturgical language.": Neither is Hebrew in the sense of Evreet Chaya. Classical Hebrew though is but how would that relegate it to the rubbish heap?
Spy: Well, Nino DOES make me laugh and humour is good for one's soul. As long as he manages not to curse I engage him. I used to ignore him straight out but it is like White Noise. No matter how it irks you there comes a time when you find yourself humming along. Hahahaha.
The matter of Honour and Family? That wopuld be an extreme stretch to say the least. We put our women on pedestals. We are taught, via the Talmud, that "G-D counts a woman's tears." To kill her over her making eye contact with a male is far, far, far from showing her respect and love.
Historically, we could only kill women who committed adultery and even then a strict trial was required. It has been eons since this was practiced, literally eons. Arab Honour Killings occur even now.
LittleBaby: "If Catholics were to establish Latin as a language that would be much the same as Rachamim's claim as Hebrew as a common denominator that would afford recoognition between Jews from greatly differeing time periods.": First, Latin is already used by Catholics although not universally (since Vatican II in the 60s). The Latin enhrined in Church liturgy is not the same as the Latin vernacular spoken by ancient Romans, if that is your point.
Secondly, Romans were a People, not a religion. Catholics are of course a religion, NOT a People. Ergo your rationale is deeply flawed.
Third, Catholics even have their own homeland despite their being merely a religion (the Vatican, AKA Holy See is independant of Italy). It does not require any rationale since it is not challenged by Italy or the vast, vast majority of its people. Israel is of course a far different story.
When Rome was disoslved the lingua franca was Greek, not Latin. Indeed, the Latin that WAS spoken more closely resembled modren day French rrather than Catholic Latin.
"Cornish was/is not a liturgical language.": Neither is Hebrew in the sense of Evreet Chaya. Classical Hebrew though is but how would that relegate it to the rubbish heap?
Spy: Well, Nino DOES make me laugh and humour is good for one's soul. As long as he manages not to curse I engage him. I used to ignore him straight out but it is like White Noise. No matter how it irks you there comes a time when you find yourself humming along. Hahahaha.
You have heard of Freud and Einstein because both lived in the Information Age and like Spinoza they lived in Europe thus making it more appealing to Eurocentric whites. The ones I listed were not in Europe, they lived in the Arabic speaking world and lived long before the typewriter was invented let alone publishing.
I also imagine that you are neither a mathematcian nor a historian so of course YOU have never heard of them. However, were you to do even a cursory search of their names (including non-phonetic transliterations of their names) you would find volumes of information on them.
If Einstein had been born in Sa'ana in the 4th Century CE/AD I doubt you would have heard of him either.
I also imagine that you are neither a mathematcian nor a historian so of course YOU have never heard of them. However, were you to do even a cursory search of their names (including non-phonetic transliterations of their names) you would find volumes of information on them.
If Einstein had been born in Sa'ana in the 4th Century CE/AD I doubt you would have heard of him either.
rachamim: thank you for your considered replies to my points.
I have come across the term before.
I did occur to me that my question could be taken as being motivated by European supremacism and I considered rewording it. Fortunately that doesn't seem to have been necessary anyway.
Your list of Jewish thinkers from outside Europe aroused curiosity and interest. Two quick observations - first, several of them appear to have been enmeshed or engaged with the early medieval Islamic world. This suggests that tolerance of non-religious intellectual exploration may have been more widespread than you allow for, going by what you've said in some other posts. However, in those posts you do use the word 'Arab' as well as 'Muslim', which may suggest a distinction in your mind between, say, Arabic and Persian Islamic cultures.
Second, many of your list of thinkers were part of a diaspora, engaging with Hellenistic (for example Philo) and Islamic culture and thought. Let me restate my original question in a broader form: was the experience of diaspora a vital component in the development of Jewish intellectual culture?
Regarding honour killings and cousin marriage. There is a correlation between the two. Cultures which practice cousin marriage a lot tend also to have more honour killings. This doesn't mean that cousin marriage must always lead to honour killings - rather it is probably a combination of conservative agrarian social traditions and cousin marriage, occurring in a geographical belt from northern Africa, through the Middle East and Afghanistan to the Punjab.
When you mention 'we' in relation to cousin marriage I am not sure exactly who the 'we' is. Rates of consanguineous marriage among Askenazi Israeli Jews are very low, as they are in Europe. (You can find prevalence rates for many different countries and ethnic groups on this website: http://www.consang.net/index.php/Main_Page).
rachamim said:
I have come across the term before.rachamim said:
I did occur to me that my question could be taken as being motivated by European supremacism and I considered rewording it. Fortunately that doesn't seem to have been necessary anyway.
Your list of Jewish thinkers from outside Europe aroused curiosity and interest. Two quick observations - first, several of them appear to have been enmeshed or engaged with the early medieval Islamic world. This suggests that tolerance of non-religious intellectual exploration may have been more widespread than you allow for, going by what you've said in some other posts. However, in those posts you do use the word 'Arab' as well as 'Muslim', which may suggest a distinction in your mind between, say, Arabic and Persian Islamic cultures.
Second, many of your list of thinkers were part of a diaspora, engaging with Hellenistic (for example Philo) and Islamic culture and thought. Let me restate my original question in a broader form: was the experience of diaspora a vital component in the development of Jewish intellectual culture?
Regarding honour killings and cousin marriage. There is a correlation between the two. Cultures which practice cousin marriage a lot tend also to have more honour killings. This doesn't mean that cousin marriage must always lead to honour killings - rather it is probably a combination of conservative agrarian social traditions and cousin marriage, occurring in a geographical belt from northern Africa, through the Middle East and Afghanistan to the Punjab.
When you mention 'we' in relation to cousin marriage I am not sure exactly who the 'we' is. Rates of consanguineous marriage among Askenazi Israeli Jews are very low, as they are in Europe. (You can find prevalence rates for many different countries and ethnic groups on this website: http://www.consang.net/index.php/Main_Page).
Kenny Vermouth
Wankers
I see Urban 75's Zyklon B club is in full session again.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Care to explain what you mean by that?
DASH:"Thanks you Rachamim for a considered reply to DASH's points.": Always. No need to thank me.
"DASH is familiar with the mathematical term 'Mesturation'.": Hahaha. Yeah, had to make sure.
"The fact that Rachamim offered names from the ancient Arab World suggest that there might have been a more relaxed and permissive climate than Rahcamim has allowed for.": Well, like Europe there were times and regimes where the environment was somewhat relaxed. Many of the names came from a specific era in what is now Iraq, while others had connections to al Andalus, a Caliphate in what is now Spain and Portugal.
Of all eras of Jewish and Muslim coexistence al Andalus was certainly the most fortuitous. Jews had always been mistreated by Iberians. The Celts, then Carthaginians, and finally various Latin speaking tribes had brutalised Jews. Then with Chritianity such mistreatment became institutionalised. Indeed my patrilineal AND matrilineal lines are rooted in Iberia so it is one dynamic in which I have taken a great amount of personal interest.
When the Arabs rode across the Sahel and N. Africa they encountered entrenched Jewish Communities in every region and often treeated Jews better than non-Jews (other than fellow Muslims and Arabs of course). When in Morrocco Jews very willingly assited the invaders with Intel and material assitance recognising the advantage this would bring should the marauders end their campaign successfully.
Jews enabled the success of the Iberian landing and rapid subsequent conquests of Spain and Portugal, and into France . The Arab campign later ended in St. Martin de Tours in France but on the other side of the Pyrnees Jews reaped their just rewards (for which they would pay dearly when the Spanish King reclaimed his lands but that is of course another sordid tale).
However, while thinking about this one must keep in mind that even in the most permissive environments Jews were Dhimmi. Dhimmi is a term applied to all "People of the Book." That term covers 3 demographics, Jews, Chrisitians, and Zoroastrians. Most people think Dhimmi merely had to pay what is known as a "poll tax," which even if true was itself an incredibly high price in terms of money. In reality though, Jews were also prohibited from riding horses, building any edifice taller than the lowest Muslim edifice. Jews were prohibted from testifying in court. Jews were prohibted from employing Muslims, from owning non-Jewish slaves (slavery , as horrid as it is was practiced all over the world). In short, Jews were treated as less than 2nd class citizens.
There were also brief periods of anti-Jewish violence in al Andalus.
In Iraq, aside from Dhimmi status, Jews only enjoyed a very, very brief respite from anti-Jewish hatred and violence. The Qu'ran , while offering praise for "People of the Book," also denigrates Jews (only Jews actually) and says Jews are untrustworthy for having tried to kill Muhammed at least two times, including a Jewish woman who tried to poison him.
When one takes the Hadit (Islamic Scripture on the sayings and doings of Muhammed) into consideration a much, much darker picture emerges. Reading the Hadit of al Bukhari, a revered Islamic theologian who lived a few hundred years ago, one finds such gems as (paraphrasing for brevity but quite accurate as to the message) " (In the End Time) Jews will hide behind rocks and trees but rocks and trees will reveal their hinding , telling their Muslim pursuers that 'Here is a Jew behind me, slay them'." That by the way is one of the more sedate teachings and is actually quoted in the HAMAS Charter as a rationale for extermination of all Jews.
People, including a couple of people in this forum, believe that Jews had an easier time among Arabs and Muslims than they had in Europe among "whites." Truth of the matter is that we suffered much more in the Arab World because at best we had severe restrictions relegating us to sub-human existences BUT the "whites" brought the practice of killing us into a well defined science that exceeded scope and efficiency of any Arab or Muslim.
At worst we had pogroms and Blood Libels just as in Europe ( a direct ancestor was murdered in Damasuc in the 1840s over a Blood Libel involving a Capuchin monk).
"DASH is familiar with the mathematical term 'Mesturation'.": Hahaha. Yeah, had to make sure.
"The fact that Rachamim offered names from the ancient Arab World suggest that there might have been a more relaxed and permissive climate than Rahcamim has allowed for.": Well, like Europe there were times and regimes where the environment was somewhat relaxed. Many of the names came from a specific era in what is now Iraq, while others had connections to al Andalus, a Caliphate in what is now Spain and Portugal.
Of all eras of Jewish and Muslim coexistence al Andalus was certainly the most fortuitous. Jews had always been mistreated by Iberians. The Celts, then Carthaginians, and finally various Latin speaking tribes had brutalised Jews. Then with Chritianity such mistreatment became institutionalised. Indeed my patrilineal AND matrilineal lines are rooted in Iberia so it is one dynamic in which I have taken a great amount of personal interest.
When the Arabs rode across the Sahel and N. Africa they encountered entrenched Jewish Communities in every region and often treeated Jews better than non-Jews (other than fellow Muslims and Arabs of course). When in Morrocco Jews very willingly assited the invaders with Intel and material assitance recognising the advantage this would bring should the marauders end their campaign successfully.
Jews enabled the success of the Iberian landing and rapid subsequent conquests of Spain and Portugal, and into France . The Arab campign later ended in St. Martin de Tours in France but on the other side of the Pyrnees Jews reaped their just rewards (for which they would pay dearly when the Spanish King reclaimed his lands but that is of course another sordid tale).
However, while thinking about this one must keep in mind that even in the most permissive environments Jews were Dhimmi. Dhimmi is a term applied to all "People of the Book." That term covers 3 demographics, Jews, Chrisitians, and Zoroastrians. Most people think Dhimmi merely had to pay what is known as a "poll tax," which even if true was itself an incredibly high price in terms of money. In reality though, Jews were also prohibited from riding horses, building any edifice taller than the lowest Muslim edifice. Jews were prohibted from testifying in court. Jews were prohibted from employing Muslims, from owning non-Jewish slaves (slavery , as horrid as it is was practiced all over the world). In short, Jews were treated as less than 2nd class citizens.
There were also brief periods of anti-Jewish violence in al Andalus.
In Iraq, aside from Dhimmi status, Jews only enjoyed a very, very brief respite from anti-Jewish hatred and violence. The Qu'ran , while offering praise for "People of the Book," also denigrates Jews (only Jews actually) and says Jews are untrustworthy for having tried to kill Muhammed at least two times, including a Jewish woman who tried to poison him.
When one takes the Hadit (Islamic Scripture on the sayings and doings of Muhammed) into consideration a much, much darker picture emerges. Reading the Hadit of al Bukhari, a revered Islamic theologian who lived a few hundred years ago, one finds such gems as (paraphrasing for brevity but quite accurate as to the message) " (In the End Time) Jews will hide behind rocks and trees but rocks and trees will reveal their hinding , telling their Muslim pursuers that 'Here is a Jew behind me, slay them'." That by the way is one of the more sedate teachings and is actually quoted in the HAMAS Charter as a rationale for extermination of all Jews.
People, including a couple of people in this forum, believe that Jews had an easier time among Arabs and Muslims than they had in Europe among "whites." Truth of the matter is that we suffered much more in the Arab World because at best we had severe restrictions relegating us to sub-human existences BUT the "whites" brought the practice of killing us into a well defined science that exceeded scope and efficiency of any Arab or Muslim.
At worst we had pogroms and Blood Libels just as in Europe ( a direct ancestor was murdered in Damasuc in the 1840s over a Blood Libel involving a Capuchin monk).
DASH: "Rachamim might make a distinction between Arab and Islamic Cultures, as well as non-Arab demographics who also adhere to Islam.": Absolutely. Iranians are a great example. Kurdi another, Turkey, Islamic India (including the modern creations of Pakistan and Bangladesh), and Afghanistan as well. In everyone of these dynamics Jews suffered and at the same time managed to contribute in ways far exceeding their minority statuses.
"Was the Disapora vital to Jewish intellectual development.": ABSOLUTELY. NO DOUBT. The Disapora has existed as long as the Jewish People has. It serves many vital functions. Some religious extremists (Jewish) maintain that ALL Jews should return to their homeland. I disagree. Without a Disapora it would be exceedingly difficult to establish tactical alliances and exert political pressure on foreign govts. What leverage would we have? The Cold War ended a while back and it is unrealistic to imagine we would retain any allies were we to subtract Jewish demographics from these foreign nations.
In terms of our culture, etc. No culture exists in a vauccum. The key is to manage assimilation. You cannot avoid it totally but neither should you openly embrace it because to do so would harken your own destruction. You mentioned Hellenisation and that is a perfect example. By internalising that which is valuable and shrugging that which is not you are then able to grow and enruich the culture as opposed ot just diluting it and causing its demise.
It is interesting to note, as I did just the other day, that Hellenisers became extinct while their contributions to Jewish Culture as whole managed to make the Jewish People more vibrant and alive.
"Correlation between kinship marriage and Honour Killings...": You have seen work on it or simply observed yourself? On the surface of it I would probably guess it is a correct statement but because of conincidence, not a true "Cause and Effect" dynamic. For example, Honour Killing is practically non existent among Jews and yet we marry closer relatives than any Arab or Muslim.
"Prevalence of Kinship Marriages among Ashkenazi Jewry...": This reflects the percentage of Charedi (observant) Jews versus non-observant Jews in gernal. While Charedi birthrates are VERY high, Charedi as a whole are still the vast minority within Jewry. This just might be reversed down the line if trneds continue but as of now, it is what it is.
Among Charedi of all sub-cultures (Mizrachi, Bukhari, Ashekazi, Beta Yisroel,etc.) Kinship Marriage is the preffered way of life. Arranged Marriage is not universal by any means even within Charedi circles but among those who still practice it, and it is not rare, the preferred match is that of a niece, specifically the daughter of one's sister. First cousins are far more common only because marrying one's niece sometimes approaches or even enters illegality in some Western Nations.
It is like the traditional manner of Brit (male circumcision). The traditional way is to tear the foreskin, after the initial cut, with one's sharpened fingernail. Then the Mohel (circumciser) actually sucks the blood out of the penis and spits it into a silver bowl.
I was in this country before the 2006 War and a Mohel who had , supposedly unknowingly, the Herpes virus and when he sucked the blood of a boy's penis he trnasmitted the virus to the baby. Herpes usually kills infants and sadly this one died. The city of NY went ballistic. Westerners were aghast that not only a disease had been transmitted but that we practice the sucking and spitting and there was a movement, for a short time, to ban the practice.
The furor died down but some Charedi began using a straw like instrument for sucking, which had been used in less observant circles but the point is that Jews tend to try and be very accomodating in Diapora nations. Polygamy ended among virtually all Ashkenazi because of European mores. So...it is certainly understandable why some Jews would begin adopting mroe Western like mores in terms of other marriage practices.
Still, I know a fair amount of Charedi in America and elsewhere, not to mention Israel of cours,e who still marry nieces.
I also have to point out that most Charedi do not register their marriages with civil authorities in Disapora nations, and even a fiar amount within Israel itself. Ironically, and this is criticism, often have no problem receiving vot. benefits such as the dole or govt. subsidised housing but would not dream of utlising govt. courts or registries. I suppose though that given the history they would be reluctant to have their names on any govt. registry.
"Was the Disapora vital to Jewish intellectual development.": ABSOLUTELY. NO DOUBT. The Disapora has existed as long as the Jewish People has. It serves many vital functions. Some religious extremists (Jewish) maintain that ALL Jews should return to their homeland. I disagree. Without a Disapora it would be exceedingly difficult to establish tactical alliances and exert political pressure on foreign govts. What leverage would we have? The Cold War ended a while back and it is unrealistic to imagine we would retain any allies were we to subtract Jewish demographics from these foreign nations.
In terms of our culture, etc. No culture exists in a vauccum. The key is to manage assimilation. You cannot avoid it totally but neither should you openly embrace it because to do so would harken your own destruction. You mentioned Hellenisation and that is a perfect example. By internalising that which is valuable and shrugging that which is not you are then able to grow and enruich the culture as opposed ot just diluting it and causing its demise.
It is interesting to note, as I did just the other day, that Hellenisers became extinct while their contributions to Jewish Culture as whole managed to make the Jewish People more vibrant and alive.
"Correlation between kinship marriage and Honour Killings...": You have seen work on it or simply observed yourself? On the surface of it I would probably guess it is a correct statement but because of conincidence, not a true "Cause and Effect" dynamic. For example, Honour Killing is practically non existent among Jews and yet we marry closer relatives than any Arab or Muslim.
"Prevalence of Kinship Marriages among Ashkenazi Jewry...": This reflects the percentage of Charedi (observant) Jews versus non-observant Jews in gernal. While Charedi birthrates are VERY high, Charedi as a whole are still the vast minority within Jewry. This just might be reversed down the line if trneds continue but as of now, it is what it is.
Among Charedi of all sub-cultures (Mizrachi, Bukhari, Ashekazi, Beta Yisroel,etc.) Kinship Marriage is the preffered way of life. Arranged Marriage is not universal by any means even within Charedi circles but among those who still practice it, and it is not rare, the preferred match is that of a niece, specifically the daughter of one's sister. First cousins are far more common only because marrying one's niece sometimes approaches or even enters illegality in some Western Nations.
It is like the traditional manner of Brit (male circumcision). The traditional way is to tear the foreskin, after the initial cut, with one's sharpened fingernail. Then the Mohel (circumciser) actually sucks the blood out of the penis and spits it into a silver bowl.
I was in this country before the 2006 War and a Mohel who had , supposedly unknowingly, the Herpes virus and when he sucked the blood of a boy's penis he trnasmitted the virus to the baby. Herpes usually kills infants and sadly this one died. The city of NY went ballistic. Westerners were aghast that not only a disease had been transmitted but that we practice the sucking and spitting and there was a movement, for a short time, to ban the practice.
The furor died down but some Charedi began using a straw like instrument for sucking, which had been used in less observant circles but the point is that Jews tend to try and be very accomodating in Diapora nations. Polygamy ended among virtually all Ashkenazi because of European mores. So...it is certainly understandable why some Jews would begin adopting mroe Western like mores in terms of other marriage practices.
Still, I know a fair amount of Charedi in America and elsewhere, not to mention Israel of cours,e who still marry nieces.
I also have to point out that most Charedi do not register their marriages with civil authorities in Disapora nations, and even a fiar amount within Israel itself. Ironically, and this is criticism, often have no problem receiving vot. benefits such as the dole or govt. subsidised housing but would not dream of utlising govt. courts or registries. I suppose though that given the history they would be reluctant to have their names on any govt. registry.
Well, correlation of two factors need not imply that one causes the other - there may be a third, unidentified factor which causes both. In the case of honour killings and cousin marriage, we might speculate that both have their distant origins in a pastoralist or transhumant way of life.
Cousin marriage interests me more than honour killings, but honour killings have been widely reported and discussed in the British media, due to the occurrence of such crimes among the Sikh and Pakistani Muslim populations here, with a few isolated cases also involving Somalis and North Africans. I can think of no incidences involving Orthodox Jews, nor indeed Nigerians, among whom cousin marriage is also fairly common, and who now live in substantial numbers in some parts of London.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Slow day on the Thanet Advertiser news desk
I thought he was still the entire staff of the Folkestone Herald.
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