Don't date Arabs! They're the enemy!

[GarfieldLeChat]

I was actually referring to racism in school text books/curriculums spreading lies about the other nationality/culture. In fact I'd be tempted to put money on the phenomenon being a hell of a lot more prevalent in Palestine than in Israel.

As for the gradient of rationality for the respective people's hatred, of course the Israeli's is the less rational on the scale because they've lost less, or had to put up with the same conditions. I still don't think either side's hatred is completely "rational" as I don't particularly think any hatred of a set of people can ever be described as rational no matter what the circumstances...

erm i can see that if i and my neighbours were shot at stoned arrested from the age 7 upwards i would develope an intollerance for the group who did this in a way that purely being educated in that insitutionalised racism i wouldn't.

compare if you will the attitude of Tel Avivian israelis to those of their jerusalm counterparts. one is learned racism from school the other is limited personal racism due to continued interaction with the groups they are schooled to fear.

if you say compared ramallah to gaza city attitudes they would have directly attributable similarlities in attitudes having little difference in their treatment.

The indoctrination of children happens on both sides which is why i suspect the only people i have come accross as wanting to purge others from the area have been in the settlements even the more extreme palestinian groups i have met and discussed these matters with openly and frankly (as i have on both sides) do not wish to see the destruction of the alternate parties merely to be left alone and to have their own land and access to it back.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

But the Arabs collectively have a great deal of power, both economic and military.

not from either within palestine where all authority is conferred by the occupiers not as a direct result of their own actions or in the wider region which refuses to interfer directly as they do not wish to upset the international scene.

you only have to look at the treatment of palestinians in Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Egypt to see that there is a disperate in equality which is pretty much universal.

 

[CyberRose]

erm i can see that if i and my neighbours were shot at stoned arrested from the age 7 upwards i would develope an intollerance for the group who did this

That's not rational tho is it? It would be rational to hate those who ordered and carried out the actions, but not rational to hate all Israelis...

 

[Spion]

That's not rational tho is it? It would be rational to hate those who ordered and carried out the actions, but not rational to hate all Israelis...

Rationality tends to be a bit of a luxury when you're earning $2 a day if you can even get work and your kids are malnourished and playing in open sewers, as is the lot of most Gazans under this siege.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

That's not rational tho is it? It would be rational to hate those who ordered and carried out the actions, but not rational to hate all Israelis...

from the perspective of the villagers they are all israelis just as from the perspective of the tel avivians the only palestinian is the one who want's to blow them up.

it's particularlly rational when they are told we are doing this for the greater israel whenever the dispropotionate or partisan actions are taken.

If you never met a martian before and they came into your house and shot your family and killed your neighbours and imprisoned you without ever explaining why then kicked you out and forced you to live in squalid conditions would you hate just that martian or all martians for allowing a circumstance which created the sitation your find yourself in?

My guess is that even the dali lama would have issues with diferentiating from the people who directly tourtured them and the wider society of which they are a product...

people generalise by experince and the limitation of that experinance is considerably easier to understand when you travel is forceably limited as is your communication as opposed to when your limiations are merely breaking from societal norms...

you are still assuming equality of access to information which their isn't, it's a touch of a dishonest argument really.

 

[CyberRose]

Rationality tends to be a bit of a luxury when you're earning $2 a day if you can even get work and your kids are malnourished and playing in open sewers, as is the lot of most Gazans under this siege.

Glad you finally agree

 

[CyberRose]

If you never met a martian before and they came into your house and shot your family and killed your neighbours and imprisoned you without ever explaining why then kicked you out and forced you to live in squalid conditions would you hate just that martian or all martians for allowing a circumstance which created the sitation your find yourself in?

I'd hate all martians, but then, that would be irrational wouldn't it?

 

[Spion]

Glad you finally agree

Finally agree with what?

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

I'd hate all martians, but then, that would be irrational wouldn't it?

nope. it would be entirely based on your experince thus far.

I'm not sure of the benifit of trying to seperate this in to an abstract deviod of the humanity of the situation. or how it progresses understanding of it what's your underlying point?

all racism is wrong?
no argument from the majority of people there.

that theres blame on both sides for atrocious actions?
there's some debate to be had about cause and effect etc.

that there's no one the conflict hasn't affected?
again no argument except to quailfy the scale or magnitude of the suffering in humanisitic and economic levels.

that cause is irrelevant to effect?
an non starter really.

i'm not sure where you underlying point is...

 

[Malamud]

Finally agree with what?

On the irrationality of such hatred, I assume?

 

[CyberRose]

nope. it would be entirely based on your experince thus far.

Yes. Which would not be rational would it?!?!?111111eleven

I'm not sure of the benifit of trying to seperate this in to an abstract deviod of the humanity of the situation. or how it progresses understanding of it what's your underlying point?

Hey, you're the one that started talking about little green men!

i'm not sure where you underlying point is...

I made a comment in my first post that the actions of this group (whether sanctioned by the state or not) were very similar to the experiences in Palestinian schools (where it IS sanctioned by the state) and that it is not exclusive to one side of the conflict. I was writing under the assumption that this would be seized upon by many posters to say how bad Israeli society was (compared to?) and all I wanted to do was point out this is a phenomenon that occurs on both sides of the fence. The reason we (and Spion) are having this argument is because you two, seemingly, find it acceptable for the Palestinians to do this, but unacceptable for Israelis to do this. I think racism is racism and that both are equally disgusting and unacceptable...

 

[CyberRose]

Finally agree with what?

What Malamud said

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Yes. Which would not be rational would it?!?!?111111eleven

your applying abstracted logic to an indivuals experince within the indivuals experinance it is entirely rational...

I made a comment in my first post that the actions of this group (whether sanctioned by the state or not) were very similar to the experiences in Palestinian schools (where it IS sanctioned by the state)

erm slightly untrue as the schools are indepenantly run outside of state influenance so no the state hasn't sanctioned it at all...

and that it is not exclusive to one side of the conflict. I was writing under the assumption that this would be seized upon by many posters to say how bad Israeli society was (compared to?) and all I wanted to do was point out this is a phenomenon that occurs on both sides of the fence. The reason we (and Spion) are having this argument is because you two, seemingly, find it acceptable for the Palestinians to do this, but unacceptable for Israelis to do this. I think racism is racism and that both are equally disgusting and unacceptable...

you are attempting to confer equality to the situation where there is none.

 

[Spion]

I think racism is racism and that both are equally disgusting and unacceptable...

In Apartheid South Africa would you have equated the enmity of whites towards blacks with that directed towards whites by blacks?

Would you have lectured Sowetans about their 'disgusting and unacceptable' views, for example?

Would you have lectured Jews in Warsaw in 1943 about their hatred of Germans?

 

[CyberRose]

your applying abstracted logic to an indivuals experince within the indivuals experinance it is entirely rational...

So you think, that in some circumstances, racism can be rational!? I don't.

erm slightly untrue as the schools are indepenantly run outside of state influenance so no the state hasn't sanctioned it at all...

Hamas then. Altho saying that, if these Israeli schools are independent of the state then it's a very straight forward comparison is it not?

you are attempting to confer equality to the situation where there is none.

I said:

many people from both societies have (understandably one might argue) developed an irrational hatred of the other side

That's all. I don't think that statement is wrong or worthy of arguing for two pages about just because the Palestinians have had a harder time than the Israelis (of which I have never sought to disagree).

 

[CyberRose]

In Apartheid South Africa would you have equated the enmity of whites towards blacks with that directed towards whites by blacks?

Would you have lectured Sowetans about their 'disgusting and unacceptable' views, for example?

Would you have lectured Jews in Warsaw in 1943 about their hatred of Germans?

Racism is racism and it's still not rational to take it out on a whole set of people is it? It's also worth mentioning that Palestinian hatred towards Israelis (which, lets face it, is actually Jews) contribute to the situation the Palestinians find themselves in. That Hamas will not recognise Israel and will not renounce its desire to "destroy" Israel means no progress can be made and the suffering of the Palestinians is prolonged (and please note I said "contribute", which it does, I am not saying this is the main factor or trying to excuse anything Israel has done so please take note of this disclaimer when replying, ta)

 

[Spion]

Racism is racism and it's still not rational to take it out on a whole set of people is it? It's also worth mentioning that Palestinian hatred towards Israelis (which, lets face it, is actually Jews) contribute to the situation the Palestinians find themselves in. That Hamas will not recognise Israel and will not renounce its desire to "destroy" Israel means no progress can be made and the suffering of the Palestinians is prolonged (and please note I said "contribute", which it does, I am not saying this is the main factor or trying to excuse anything Israel has done so please take note of this disclaimer when replying, ta)

You are making excuses. The occupation is the root cause. Only one side is occupied by a foreign military power, only one side is blockaded by land, sea and air, only one side is having its land stolen by the building of an 8m high wall, only one side is subject to house demolitions, targeted assassinations, cannot travel on Jews-only roads etc etc etc.

The UN has declared the occupation of the WB and Gaza illegal every year since 1967.

 

[Spion]

Racism is racism and it's still not rational to take it out on a whole set of people is it? It's also worth mentioning that Palestinian hatred towards Israelis (which, lets face it, is actually Jews) contribute to the situation the Palestinians find themselves in. That Hamas will not recognise Israel and will not renounce its desire to "destroy" Israel means no progress can be made and the suffering of the Palestinians is prolonged (and please note I said "contribute", which it does, I am not saying this is the main factor or trying to excuse anything Israel has done so please take note of this disclaimer when replying, ta)

Anyway, you didn't answer my questions:

In Apartheid South Africa would you have equated the enmity of whites towards blacks with that directed towards whites by blacks?

Would you have lectured Jews in Warsaw in 1943 about their hatred of Germans?

Or would you have seen that there was a deeper root cause to those enmities?

 

[CyberRose]

You are making excuses. The occupation is the root cause. Only one side is occupied by a foreign military power, only one side is blockaded by land, sea and air, only one side is having its land stolen by the building of an 8m high wall, only one side is subject to house demolitions, targeted assassinations, cannot travel on Jews-only roads etc etc etc.

The UN has declared the occupation of the WB and Gaza illegal every year since 1967.

The occupation IS the root cause, you won't hear any different from me (actually, I'd probably say the settlements were the root cause because imo they are the reason for the occupation but hey ho)

However, there are still many on the Palestinian side who are seemingly unwilling to accept any kind of deal and won't accept anything less than the "destruction" of Israel. Surely you can see that they are contributors to the problem? Of course not as much as Israeli policy but still...

 

[CyberRose]

Anyway, you didn't answer my questions:

In Apartheid South Africa would you have equated the enmity of whites towards blacks with that directed towards whites by blacks?

Would you have lectured Jews in Warsaw in 1943 about their hatred of Germans?

Or would you have seen that there was a deeper root cause to those enmities?

I just don't know how to equate your "examples" to make them relevant to this topic. My comments were never intended to be general to the conflict but specific to what some students are taught in schools. Obviously, like all Palestine threads, the topic gets left behind on page one and the thread just descends into a generic Palestine thread with the same arguments etc so now obviously we are talking in general terms. But portraying Jews as evil cunts in school text books, in my opinion, is counter productive and therefore not particularly rational

 

[Spion]

However, there are still many on the Palestinian side who are seemingly unwilling to accept any kind of deal and won't accept anything less than the "destruction" of Israel. Surely you can see that they are contributors to the problem? Of course not as much as Israeli policy but still...

I don't actually - they're pretty irrelevant. Israel is a modern and well armed state. It doesn't have to support the settlement of 200,000-plus settlers in the West Bank, it doesn't have to build a wall that steals land from Palestinians, it doesn't have to blockade Gaza by land, sea and air. If Israel were serious about a 2 state solution it could effect it tomorrow and use tried and trusted law enforcement measures to protect its borders. Given that it does none of these things and holds onto land that it gained through war more than 40 years ago I think it's quite clear that it is determined to hang onto it.

Anyway, this thread wasn't about the occupied territories. It was about racism inside Israel.

 

[CyberRose]

I don't actually - they're pretty irrelevant.

Eh?!?!?!

Israel is a modern and well armed state. It doesn't have to support the settlement of 200,000-plus settlers in the West Bank, it doesn't have to build a wall that steals land from Palestinians, it doesn't have to blockade Gaza by land, sea and air. If Israel were serious about a 2 state solution it could effect it tomorrow and use tried and trusted law enforcement measures to protect its borders. Given that it does none of these things and holds onto land that it gained through war more than 40 years ago I think it's quite clear that it is determined to hang onto it.

Actually they do. For exactly the same way the American President has to support Israel, the Israeli government has to appear to be taking a tough line against the Palestinians and has to support the settlers, otherwise, like an American President who does not support Israel, they will struggle to get elected in the first place and struggle even more to stay in power and implement the kind of policies me and you would like to see. It's politics my dear friend. If you weren't so seemingly naive about how politics work then you might see that. You also might see how a conflict as complicated as this won't be resolved as simply as it will in your head.

Anyway, this thread wasn't about the occupied territories. It was about racism inside Israel.

Actually it was about what some Israelis are being taught about Arabs, which is a direct parallel to what some Palestinians are being taught about Jews...both of which are racist and unacceptable (to most people)

 

[Spion]

Actually they do. For exactly the same way the American President has to support Israel, the Israeli government has to appear to be taking a tough line against the Palestinians and has to support the settlers, otherwise, like an American President who does not support Israel, they will struggle to get elected in the first place and struggle even more to stay in power and implement the kind of policies me and you would like to see. It's politics my dear friend. If you weren't so seemingly naive about how politics work then you might see that. You also might see how a conflict as complicated as this won't be resolved as simply as it will in your head.

It'll be resolved by changing public opinion, which at present is dominated by a pro-Israel lobby that has succeeded in convincing the world that Israel's violations of an entire population in defiance of numerous UN resolutions is acceptable. Luckily there are some people who disagree. Clearly you're not one of them, and you bravely stand with the powerful and hold to the doctrine of 'might is right'. You're part of the problem not the solution.

('My dear friend' LOL, you silly twat )

 

[CyberRose]

It'll be resolved by changing public opinion

Which public would that be?

Luckily there are some people who disagree. Clearly you're not one of them, and you bravely stand with the powerful and hold to the doctrine of 'might is right'. You're part of the problem not the solution.

Clearly?! LOL you muppet!

I believe Israel needs to evacuate all settlements in the West Bank and withdraw to 67 borders. Please please tell me how your opinion differs to mine?!

('My dear friend' LOL, you silly twat )

I'll be the first to admit I'm a twat, but at least I don't treat the Israel Palestine conflict like it's some kind of football match where you pick a fucking side and support it no matter what

 

[Spion]

I believe Israel needs to evacuate all settlements in the West Bank and withdraw to 67 borders. Please please tell me how your opinion differs to mine?!

I think Israel's occupation of the WB and Gaza is the main threat to peace in the region and possibly a spark for worldwide conflict in future. You don't seem to think it's that important and only declare you opposition when pushed. I mean, 10 minutes ago you called me naive for suggesting Israel could and should withdraw to its 67 boundaries, so you'll excuse me for seeing you as a bit of a hayseed on this

 

[Spion]

I'll be the first to admit I'm a twat, but at least I don't treat the Israel Palestine conflict like it's some kind of football match where you pick a fucking side and support it no matter what

Sometimes there are 'sides' (of a sort). I was against apartheid, I was against the invasion of Iraq, if I was alive I'd have been against the Nazi conquest of Europe and the holocaust, but hey I know these issues can look a bit blurred to you realists

 

[CyberRose]

I think Israel's occupation of the WB and Gaza is the main threat to peace in the region and possibly a spark for worldwide conflict in future. You don't seem to think it's that important and only declare you opposition when pushed. I mean, 10 minutes ago you called me naive for suggesting Israel could and should withdraw to its 67 boundaries, so you'll excuse me for seeing you as a bit of a hayseed on this

I called you naive because you don't seem to understand the political pressures faced by whoever happens to be the current government in Israel. I gave you the US President analogy - I'm sure even you can work out that any American President that does not support Israel will not win an election (or re-election). All governments (or more to the point, prospective governments) in democracies have to be elected and face certain political sensitivities. In Israel, at this current time (ie in the last few years), while it appears Hamas are unwilling to recognise Israel, a significant amount of people would look unfavourably on the government that took a softly softly approach with the Palestinians and therefore those kinds of policies simply would not last. With the settlers, well, their pressure groups forms 10% of the Knesset and they are incredibly strong politically so even if there were the will, it's a very tough task politically opposing them.

So while I completely agree with your "should", I'm not politically naive enough to completely agree with your "could" (if that makes sense)

Anyway, I ask again, how does your opinion on the resolution of this conflict differ with mine?

 

[Detroit City]

, some Israeli schools are providing relationship instruction which characterise bedouin Arab citizens of Israel as 'the enemy' and warning Jewish girls against having relationships with them.

there are only around 13 million Jews in the entire world. that's about the population of the US state of Illinois.

self-preservation is what i'd call it....

 

[CyberRose]

Sometimes there are 'sides' (of a sort). I was against apartheid, I was against the invasion of Iraq, if I was alive I'd have been against the Nazi conquest of Europe and the holocaust, but hey I know these issues can look a bit blurred to you realists

My comment about supporting a football team was you seem to pick a team and want them to win no matter what. You don't seem to care about what your chosen team does, you just blindly support no matter what. You have no right to talk about issues being blurred because in your mind it is a clear cut black and white decision where the Palestinians are in the right and everything they do is 100% justified. I think taking a side to the extent you have taken a side in any conflict is just dumb...

 

[Spion]

Anyway, I ask again, how does your opinion on the resolution of this conflict differ with mine?

You don't seem to have an opinion on it, except to say 'whatever is the status quo right now, I can't challenge that.'

That's not politics, that's just submission