Does Israel really have Nuclear Weapons?

[moono]

The Arabs that I speak to all know that Israel and Palestine must recognise each other, (there will be some in Israel and Palestine that will not like that) but it must happen for there to be peace and for both of you to have any chance of living side by side behind your walls in any kind of peace.

No. The point for the 'recognition' of Israel has passed. The State of Israel has become a fascist state and should not be treated as a humane society.

Efforts should be concentrated on One State of Palestine, a democratic state within which all the indigenous populations are represented by vote, not by the Quassam and not by American jets.

'Recognising' Israel is tantamount to rubber-stamping a forward Middle-Eastern base for the future Nixons and Bushs. Look what they have done. America has no legitimate business in the region, nor the UK, nor the French. All are invaders and all have brought misery and death. 'Recognising' Israel implies that their repressive policies have been correct and acceptable. This is clearly not the case. The world is up in arms over the 'recognition' of Israel.

Shun fascism. Look closely at the intent of the Zionist and American collusion. It is anti-Arab, racist and immoral. Our sympathies for holocaust survivors have been milked for decades and the Zionists have disguised their aggression beneath
the cloak of 'victim'. Arabs are now the victims yet the milking continues. Wake up.

One State of Palestine could bring an end to separation and ethnic cleansing. Two separate States will depend upon separation and ethnic cleansing to maintain their differences. It's the wrong route, a dummy sold by militarists and oil barons.

They have been defeated in Iraq, defeat them in Palestine.

 

[weltweit]

No. The point for the 'recognition' of Israel has passed. The State of Israel has become a fascist state and should not be treated as a humane society.

I am afraid that if I try to put myself in the shoes of Israel or in the shoes of Palestine, I can see the real possibility that I might do exactly what they are doing at the moment. It is not a nice thought to have but I live in quiet suburbia, here there are no suicide bombers or rockets, no armoured bulldozers tanks and IDF, and no religious fanaticism.

I would like to think that as someone who wants to be “on the sides of the humans” I could rise above it but in truth if my family were threatened injured or killed I know that I have the same temptations as all normal humans have and that temptation is for revenge and to fight.

Efforts should be concentrated on One State of Palestine, a democratic state within which all the indigenous populations are represented by vote, not by the Quassam and not by American jets.

Idealistically I agree with you, if people life together and rub shoulders with each other daily they eventually have to get along because the cost otherwise it too great.

But it seems to my Persian friends that the time in which this was possible is past. They have proven that they cannot live together, there would just be enormous slaughter and no chance of peace.

'Recognising' Israel is tantamount to rubber-stamping a forward Middle-Eastern base for the future Nixons and Bushs. Look what they have done. America has no legitimate business in the region, nor the UK, nor the French. All are invaders and all have brought misery and death. 'Recognising' Israel implies that their repressive policies have been correct and acceptable. This is clearly not the case. The world is up in arms over the 'recognition' of Israel.

No one will give up their arms until they feel completely safe, it just does not happen.

Shun fascism. Look closely at the intent of the Zionist and American collusion. It is anti-Arab, racist and immoral. Our sympathies for holocaust survivors have been milked for decades and the Zionists have disguised their aggression beneath
the cloak of 'victim'. Arabs are now the victims yet the milking continues. Wake up.

I quite agree with you. I feel little sympathy for the Jews in Israel, they are not attempting to find a peaceful settlement at the moment because they have the upper hand. The people being really persecuted are the Palestinians.

One State of Palestine could bring an end to separation and ethnic cleansing. Two separate States will depend upon separation and ethnic cleansing to maintain their differences. It's the wrong route, a dummy sold by militarists and oil barons.

But it is too idealist, it would never happen the hate is too great, it is like saying that the Christians and Muslims in Yugoslavia should live together in one country again, there has been too much slaughter it is no longer possible. It is no longer likely, yes it is an ideal people living together as humans but they are not behaving in a civilised way, the chance has passed and the majority on both sides do not want this.

They have been defeated in Iraq, defeat them in Palestine.

Who has been defeated in Iraq, Saddam yes certainly but no one else. At the moment I see Iraq heading for partition with or without the blessings of the allies.

It is a big mess and reminds me of Yugoslavia.

 

[nino_savatte]

But it is too idealist, it would never happen the hate is too great, it is like saying that the Christians and Muslims in Yugoslavia should live together in one country again, there has been too much slaughter it is no longer possible. It is no longer likely, yes it is an ideal people living together as humans but they are not behaving in a civilised way, the chance has passed and the majority on both sides do not want this.

A couple of things: first, Palestine is inhabited by both Christians and Muslims. Christians have participated in the struggle against Israel for many decades. Have you ever heard of Hanan Ashrawi of the PLO?

Your Yugoslav analogy overlooks one important fact: this was not a war between Muslims and Christians, it was a war between competing nationalist factions. The Serbs and Croats are both Christians (the former is Orthodox and the latter Catholic) and both were at each others throats from the inception of the state of the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes (which became Yugoslavia).

 

[weltweit]

A couple of things: first, Palestine is inhabited by both Christians and Muslims. Christians have participated in the struggle against Israel for many decades. Have you ever heard of Hanan Ashrawi of the PLO?

Hi Nino, no I have not heard of Hanan Ashrawi, I do read and watch the news but freely admit that in here there are a lot of people that know a whole lot more about the situation than I do.

I just tend to get a visceral feeling that things are unfair unjust etc and then leap in with both feet perhaps, no usually, not knowing all the facts.

Your Yugoslav analogy overlooks one important fact: this was not a war between Muslims and Christians, it was a war between competing nationalist factions. The Serbs and Croats are both Christians (the former is Orthodox and the latter Catholic) and both were at each others throats from the inception of the state of the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes (which became Yugoslavia).

But Nino this is the thing that irritates me so much about human behaviour, as soon as we decided to abandon our animal nakedness and start to wear clothes we found more and more ways to be different and more and more ways to dislike each other group gang up and fight and start wars.

Ok so I got that wrong there was nationalism as well or instead of religionism, it does not really make any odds, people found and find the smallest human difference enough to massacre each other ... none of us are exactly the same, when I was growing up the Christians were in my school and said I should join their gang, well I was in it for a bit then I decided no this is stupid, I would rather be in the gang called HUMANS there are more in that gang it should be stronger.

.. really what other animal species on the planet does what humans do .. that .. massacre each other .. try to erase each other .. the same species .... I cannot think of any.

 

[moono]

Evolution goes on. There is homo superior and then there are the reluctant anthropoids like rachamim who mock everybody that stands up straight.
We have to live in parallel with the rachamims but we certainly don't have to listen to the twats.

rachamim;

just as I have shown above.

You've shown nothing, just some loose references to events way before the engagement of modern international law via the United Nations. I'll tell you again, previous treaty and law, particularly Customary Law, has been absorbed and adapted by the UN with the AGREEMENT of all signatories.

Israel was never party to the creation of the UN because there was no fucking Israel when the UN was created. That's only sixty years ago. Israel has been responsible for sixty years of hell in the region and will continue to be the regional pariah until Zionism is stuffed.

 

[nino_savatte]

Hi Nino, no I have not heard of Hanan Ashrawi, I do read and watch the news but freely admit that in here there are a lot of people that know a whole lot more about the situation than I do.

I just tend to get a visceral feeling that things are unfair unjust etc and then leap in with both feet perhaps, no usually, not knowing all the facts.



But Nino this is the thing that irritates me so much about human behaviour, as soon as we decided to abandon our animal nakedness and start to wear clothes we found more and more ways to be different and more and more ways to dislike each other group gang up and fight and start wars.

Ok so I got that wrong there was nationalism as well or instead of religionism, it does not really make any odds, people found and find the smallest human difference enough to massacre each other ... none of us are exactly the same, when I was growing up the Christians were in my school and said I should join their gang, well I was in it for a bit then I decided no this is stupid, I would rather be in the gang called HUMANS there are more in that gang it should be stronger.

.. really what other animal species on the planet does what humans do .. that .. massacre each other .. try to erase each other .. the same species .... I cannot think of any.

The thing is, too many people leap to the conclusion that all Palestinians are Muslim. Also, far too many people make the mistake of conflating religious issues with nationalism. Sometimes the two intersect. NI is a good example of where many think the struggle is between Catholics and Protestants; nothing could be more simplistic, especially when one considers that Wolfe Tone and Charles Stewart Parnell were Protestants and were at the forefront of the Home Rule movement.

I think the problems lie with the fact that most states are patriarchal; and the patriarchy demands that territory be gained and all those who are different should be exterminated.

 

[weltweit]

The thing is, too many people leap to the conclusion that all Palestinians are Muslim. Also, far too many people make the mistake of conflating religious issues with nationalism. Sometimes the two intersect. NI is a good example of where many think the struggle is between Catholics and Protestants; nothing could be more simplistic, especially when one considers that Wolfe Tone and Charles Stewart Parnell were Protestants and were at the forefront of the Home Rule movement.

I think the problems lie with the fact that most states are patriarchal; and the patriarchy demands that territory be gained and all those who are different should be exterminated.

The thing is all this is childrens gang behavious as performed by adults, find any reason to group around an identifiable flag and then "death to the outsiders", it is so childlike and so uncivilised.

Palestine Israel and Lebanon can be viewed as children arguing over the same toys, when you consider there is only so much land and water and both of them will have to have access to Jerusalem because both of their potty religions demand it.

They will have to reach a settlement or completely suppress the other side.

Incidentally I heard Blair argue in a press conference again yesterday that the root of middle east turmoil is Israel Palestine, and that this had to be the centre of any solutions for that and for Iraq, as if we really are likely to believe he will be able to solve it in the last few months of his tenure when so many years of bloodshed have gone before, I seriously think the man is deluded.

 

[nino_savatte]

The thing is all this is childrens gang behavious as performed by adults, find any reason to group around an identifiable flag and then "death to the outsiders", it is so childlike and so uncivilised.

Palestine Israel and Lebanon can be viewed as children arguing over the same toys, when you consider there is only so much land and water and both of them will have to have access to Jerusalem because both of their potty religions demand it.

They will have to reach a settlement or completely suppress the other side.

Incidentally I heard Blair argue in a press conference again yesterday that the root of middle east turmoil is Israel Palestine, and that this had to be the centre of any solutions for that and for Iraq, as if we really are likely to believe he will be able to solve it in the last few months of his tenure when so many years of bloodshed have gone before, I seriously think the man is deluded.

Blair is talking out of his arse (again) but then, he isn't one for learning the lessons of history. The real reason the Middle East is in the state it's in is because of the British love of partitioning lands as a solution to local problems. Though in the case of the Middle East it was done because of the oil.

Other examples of British partitioning include India and Ireland...neither of them have been roaring successes.

 

[weltweit]

I think there is a danger that there may end up with some USA partitioning in Iraq personally.

It may be the only way they can leave without an enormous bloodbath starting behind them.

 

[nino_savatte]

I think there is a danger that there may end up with some USA partitioning in Iraq personally.

It may be the only way they can leave without an enormous bloodbath starting behind them.

I said at the very beginning of this conflict that Iraq would probably be partitioned. Tbh, it should never have been created in the first place. Most of those who became Iraqi did so reluctanty. Arab nationalism didn't really take hold there until the mid to late 1930's and, even then, it came about as the result of a military coup.

The British reneged on the Kurds and the Assyrians, both of whom wanted their own states but instead found themselves absorbed into an entity called "Iraq". We know what happened next.

 

[weltweit]

How do you think the politicians could manage to sell us a partitioned Iraq as a success?

 

[nino_savatte]

How do you think the politicians could manage to sell us a partitioned Iraq as a success?

That's what they use press briefings and leaks to the media for. But given that Iraq, as a single entity, had to be held together by force since its inception, perhaps it wouldn't be such a bad thing if it returned to the individual statelets of the former Ottoman vilayets.

I'm sure they could find the right way to spin it.

 

[weltweit]

I do think this partition thing is fascinating, we are all always moving together or moving apart, Great Britain is at the moment arguable moving apart with MSPs in Scotland a Welsh assembly power sharing in N Ireland, it is like the islands are starting very slowly to split again within themselves.

Then at the same time we are all being drawn into the place called Europe which may allow us to be peaceful inside Europe but may make us competitive and eventually warlike with the USA and China.

It is like some kind of game with the only rules being constant slow movement and constant redefining of boundaries and identities.

Still I suppose I can be grateful having been born into a Europe at peace, that is more than my parents had.

 

[frogwoman]

Interesting thread topic.

If they do it hasnt done them much good has it.

My dad said something similar to this a while back, he said he didn't believe that they had nukes at all and that its in Israels interest to make people THINK they have nukes so other nations wont attack them so readily, when actually they dont. He reckons Vanunu is actually in on it, as well, and agreed to the sacrifice of going to prison so he could protect the country!

 

[kebabking]

FFS, anyone who knows anything about the production of Nuclear weapons knows Israel has them.

they have a 'Nuclear production line'. we know this because the French gave it to them and you can look at it on Google. assuming they didn't just buy it and then leave it switched off in the desert they will have a certain quantity of 'nuclear products' each year.

they could of course just lob them into a hole in the ground and watch it glow, but thats just a bit unlikely...

actually having Nukes has done them a lot of good. Israel has fought 3 large multi-national wars sinse the War of Independence - 1956, 1967, 1973.

but not since. might there be a patern?

(actually they had a few tactical nukes in '73 but the various Arab governments thought as you do. their reward was the Israeli's having a panic and ordering their use on Syrian and Egyptian armoured units - the orders were counter-manded when the aircraft were in the air.)

 

[weltweit]

I think it is often valuable to question basic assumptions.

Pro Israel people think it is fine that Israel may have Nukes for it's own protection, but they think Iran getting them would be an open act of aggression.

How can that be?

Iran needs them to balance the threat from Israel and the USA, to feel defended, to feel safe.

I am for the Iranian bomb. They should have nuclear power and if they want the bomb also they should have it after all we, Great Britain, do not look like giving up our right to be able to instantly turn a city of innocent humans to glass, if we are allowed to continue to have it so should anyone.

Israel started this little local arms race, it is time Iran and the others caught up.

 

[rachamim18]

Bingiman: Instead of just telling me I am plain wrong, please elaborate and explain exactly why.


Weltweit: You seriously need to actuaslly read the Charters of HAMAS, PIJ, and Hezbollah and see for yourself before committing yourself to a half drawn opinion.


I am taxed for time as I have to report for duty but I will try to post in coming days....

 

[moono]

I am taxed for time as I have to report for duty but I will try to post in coming days....

Go AWOL. Save some Palestinian kids.

 

[weltweit]

Weltweit: You seriously need to actuaslly read the Charters of HAMAS, PIJ, and Hezbollah and see for yourself before committing yourself to a half drawn opinion.

If anyone can show me where I can read them I will.

But all the same, talking has to occur.
The Palestinians have voted for Hamas.

Hamas now represent at least some palestinians.