Does Israel really have Nuclear Weapons?

[GarfieldLeChat]

Did any of those killed on 7/7 receive direct threats beforehand?

Any personal letters mailed?

irrlevent to you or your family being directly targetted ...

I don't like people who have targeted me and my family and friends for attack, no matter who they are or where they come from.

Least you forget your own fantasy ramblings...

so

When exactly have you or your family been directly targetted....

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

irrlevent to you or your family being directly targetted ...



Least you forget your own fantasy ramblings...

so

When exactly have you or your family been directly targetted....

According to al q, canada and canadians have been targetted.

Me, my family, my friends, live in canada, are canadians. By process of elimination, we are potential targets.

 

[weltweit]

The people of Great Britain were sold the Iraq war on the grounds that he was threatening us with WMD with 45 minutes readiness, lots of people did not believe this and it has proven to be completely wrong.

There was never any mention of 1) safeguard sources of petroleum or 2) regime change.

We know we were lied to.

Oh and before I forget, our chief weapons inspector the primary expert on Iraq weapons of mass destruction David Kelly was found dead in very suspicious circumstances just before he was due to tell the public what he knew to be the actual facts as he had seen with his own eyes.

I know I am not the only person who is almost certain he was in fact bumped off, and the subsequent hutton report was just a sham.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

According to al q, canada and canadians have been targetted.

Me, my family, my friends, live in canada, are canadians. By process of elimination, we are potential targets.

that's ageneralised threat thought not a targetted one a targeted one would be al q say that jc2 famliy are for it you said you and your famly have been targetted so please highlight when they have there fore been highlitghted other than in propaganda for your beloved bushbaby...

 

[kyser_soze]

Weltweit - have you read 'The Samson Option' by Seymour M. Hersh? Very good account of how the Israeli deterrent was conceived, built and tested against the wishes of the US, how it was very nearly deployed in the Yom Kippur war etc. Well worth tracking down if you're really interested...

 

[moono]

rachamim;

"Fairer settlement for the 'Palestinians'." How much fairer do you want? They were once offered all of Gaza, "West Bank," Jerusalem, and refused it!!! Anything fairer would put Israel out of existence.

This is an untruth which appears ingrained into poor rach's consciousness and pops out from time to time inviting refutation.

No 'offer' ever made to the Palestinians has provided for a ' viable and contiguous ' State of Palestine. This has been pointed out so frequently that there is no excuse for perpetuating the fallacy.

Dershowitz challenges our claim that the Israelis did not offer the Palestinians a contiguous state at Camp David in July 2000. As support, he cites a statement by former Israeli prime minister Ehud Barak and the memoirs of former US negotiator Dennis Ross. There are a number of competing accounts of what happened at Camp David, however, and many of them agree with our claim. Moreover, Barak himself acknowledges that ‘the Palestinians were promised a continuous piece of sovereign territory except for a razor-thin Israeli wedge running from Jerusalem . . . to the Jordan River.’ This wedge, which would bisect the West Bank, was essential to Israel’s plan to retain control of the Jordan River Valley for another six to twenty years. Finally, and contrary to Dershowitz’s claim, there was no ‘second map’ or map of a ‘final proposal at Camp David’. Indeed, it is explicitly stated in a note beside the map published in Ross’s memoirs that ‘no map was presented during the final rounds at Camp David.’ Given all this, it is not surprising that Barak’s foreign minister, Shlomo Ben-Ami, who was a key participant at Camp David, later admitted: ‘If I were a Palestinian I would have rejected Camp David as well.’

http://www.irmep.org/mw_letter.htm

 

[Hagal]

Do they really have them or not?

That's what JFK said.
http://www.john-f-kennedy.net/mossadandtheassassination.htm

 

[zoltan]

Weltweit: "Bull in a ChinaShoppe." Right, Cause Saddam in the southern marshes turning his Shia into pulverised fish flake was just relaxing ball of love, ditto the Kurdish regions he annihilated in his own country, or Chaldeans and Assyrians he tortured to death, or Jews he turned into life sized puppets powerd by a German Shepard's tongue powering their bums...

While most adults realise by now that Bush's redeoployment there had nothing to do with "freedom or democracy," neither can a rational adult argue that most Iraqis have the ability to lead better lives today sans Hussein.Saddam destabalised the whole region alot more than Bush Jr. ever did, or ever will.

Had France and Germany been more interested in supporting the American ideology instead of seeking to preserve their own little duty free spit of sand [and they are still up to the same tricks in Lebanon] then maybe things would not have spun out half as bad...

Now everybody whines...."Ittttttt's alllll about oillllllllll!!!" Yes, and so? Look around the room you are in. How many of the things you have there are made from petroleum or petroleum based products. The plastics in your computer maybe? In the world we live in, ofssil fuels are a given and Hussein managed to screw with the West's head at every turn. For this reason alone Bush, et al stand justoified in taking him out.

Of course, as an Israeli I am grateful that one of our 40 odd committed enemies is now scratched off the list but that is neither here nor there. That is not why he was desposed, just a boon all the same.

Weltweit: May I ask? How old are you? I am not trying to disparage you in the least but when you offer up juicy tidbits like "America should help Iran develop its nuclear capabilities and welcome them as friends [in doing so]," I seriously wonder on your sanity. Of course were you in your teens [possible even younger?], it might be understandable. After all, when I was in the bracket I would not have loved anyone to recall my political leanings.

For starters, it was Iran that has antagonised America since Day One. Take a good look at those Embassy photos, 1977, in Tehran. Does the bearded spokesman look at all familiar to you? He, and his nation are offically at political loggerheads with America and it has precious little to do with American [then and now] support for Israel.


If someone seeks your utter destruvction it is not exactly prudent to help them towards that end. America has not isolated Iran on the World Stage, Iran did that all by themselves.


As for the last poster, and you, posing opinions as to why Iran hates Israel....There is an Islamic doctrine that calls for any place that has been ruled by Muslims for 5 minutes or more to evermore be Islamic land. Ergo, all of Israel and the lands aound it are Islamic lands and Muslims will never accept Israel as an independant state with a Jewish majority. It just won't happen.

As a Resident of the ME, you should really have some idea of what the history of Iran & its Pre Revolution relationship with the US was like & the popular forces that came into play in the late '70s.

its not Black & white.

 

[kyser_soze]

its not Black & white.

Come on Zoltan, you know when it comes to the ME it is black and white for everyone who shouts and rants about it all the time. One of the reasons so few people bother with threads in ME politics...

 

[moono]

One of the reasons so few people bother with threads in ME politics...

 

[zoltan]

I know

Im going to start off a thread in the ME forum entitled" The MIddle East - Where did it all go wrong ? "


and get to the bottom of it once & for all.A definative answer.oh yes.

 

[weltweit]

Weltweit - have you read 'The Samson Option' by Seymour M. Hersh? Very good account of how the Israeli deterrent was conceived, built and tested against the wishes of the US, how it was very nearly deployed in the Yom Kippur war etc. Well worth tracking down if you're really interested...

Hi kyser_soze

No I have not read that, thanks for the reference I will check it out.

"nearly deployed" ouch, that is the thing about nuclear weapons if people have them they MAY use them even when not engaged against a similarly armed foe.

In fact of course the only time they have been used to date was against a conventionally armed foe in Japan.

Awful weapons, the word MAD applies even in the instance when only one side has them mad as in "clinically insane" I mean. I do not feel any safer, as a current resident of Great Britain, because of the knowledge that we have the ability to obliterate complete cities of our enemies.

Let them all rust (like russia is doing)

 

[kebabking]

"nearly deployed" ouch, that is the thing about nuclear weapons if people have them they MAY use them even when not engaged against a similarly armed foe.

they nearly used them in '73 because they were caught completely unawares* in an armoured pincer movement. regular forces weren't ready and the reserves were at home. the weapons to be used were air dropped tactical nukes on Syrian and Egyptian Armoured units.

only massive sortie rates by the IAF and a very tenacious holding action by a depleted Armoured brigade stabilised the situation to the point where the Israelis stopped panicing. once they stopped panicing they stopped thinking about using nukes.

* as has proved fashionable of late, there were massive indications of the impending war, but the government of the day found such talk politically unfavourable and did FA about it.

 

[weltweit]

Yes an argument for tactical nukes or other smaller scale WMD is that an enemy should never be able to amass its conventional forces in case they are wiped out in one go.

But this also explains how we (GB) were lied to about Iraq because if Saddam had really had WMD (or if we believed he did) it would have been very unwise to amass our forces into a concentrated area before the attack which I understand is what we did.

So the intelligence was probably fabricated and the politicians and military leaders probably knew ..

 

[moono]

Another good point, and quite a fresh one.

 

[kebabking]

Yes an argument for tactical nukes or other smaller scale WMD is that an enemy should never be able to amass its conventional forces in case they are wiped out in one go.

But this also explains how we (GB) were lied to about Iraq because if Saddam had really had WMD (or if we believed he did) it would have been very unwise to amass our forces into a concentrated area before the attack which I understand is what we did.

So the intelligence was probably fabricated and the politicians and military leaders probably knew ..

it makes sense when thinking about nukes, but not CBW - as modern, western armies are - in theory - very well protected against such threats. indeed the British more than the Americans.

the Doctrine in Germany in the Eighties was that the British Army could fight at 80% effectiveness (the Red Army calculated its own effectiveness in a CBW environment at less than 50%) while completely protected against CBW for 18 days. take that technology forward 20 years and the capability is unlikely to have reduced.

no UK minister ever said said anything about Iraqi nukes, indeed such fanciful rubbish has long been explicitly denied by UK agencies.

as far as i know only Cheney brought them up in the US, and he was quickly put in his place on the issue.

its a new angle, but its way off.

 

[weltweit]

its a new angle, but its way off.

Yes you are probably right, we were told he had Chemical Biological but not Nukes.

Btw what do you think about David Kelly suicide or bumped off?

 

[kebabking]

Yes you are probably right, we were told he had Chemical Biological but not Nukes.

Btw what do you think about David Kelly suicide or bumped off?

dunno, its as suspicious as a big suspicious thing with its hands down its trousers, but OTOH people do top themselves when under extreme pressure.

that the state was complicit in his death is, IMHO, incontrovertable. he was outed, pilloried and villified by a government press machine brimming with bile and vitriol and deliberately given no support or protection by his department.

whether he died by his own hand or some steely-eyed dealer of death did it for him is fairly irrelevent in my view.

(personally i doubt that any of the Agencies one might suspect would of touched such an 'opportunity' with a burning bargepole. the anger towards the Blair government was palpable within such agencies - as much at the top as within the rank and file - and i imagine both would of relished telling Blair to fcuk off and then taking such a 'request' to the media.)

 

[weltweit]

whether he died by his own hand or some steely-eyed dealer of death did it for him is fairly irrelevent in my view.

Well I always thought that he was done in, but I recently was talking to someone quite establishment and was frankly amazed when he said of course he was bumped off and then went on to say that he was amazed that this sort of thing could happen here in GB.

I do think it matters a lot, but I know that there are a lot of clever people in whitehall who seem to be able to make an enquiry result in whatever they want it to result in, so I suppose we will never have incontrovertible proof.

I only know what seems to make sense to me.

 

[ZAMB]

Yes, and Iran's action of attempting to obtain nukes, also has consequences.

Who says it has? The same people who told you Iraq had them. The inspectors have found nothing which breaks the NPT.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

that's ageneralised threat thought not a targetted one a targeted one would be al q say that jc2 famliy are for it you said you and your famly have been targetted so please highlight when they have there fore been highlitghted other than in propaganda for your beloved bushbaby...

I didn't realize that al q was in the habit of disseminating propaganda for bush.

 

[Fez909]

Weltweit: I understand your feeling that your government is involved in things it shouldn't be but I would ask you to remember that Britain relies on petroleum just like America. The "World Policeman" line is just propaganda. The objective is to safeguard sources of petroleum.

This is probably true. But if we didn't spend so much time, money and energy into "safeguarding sources of petroleum" we would have, how much money to spend on finding alternative sources of energy? Imagine the UK military budget directed at renewables? The planet and the Middle East would be so much the better for it.

Were things better when Saddam was in power just because there no daily bombings? Well, gassing hundreds of your own people including babies, etc. is pretty gruesome. The bombings are to be expected during a period of extreme transition. Once a permanent transition has been achieved, there will be a semblance of stability, with no worries of being gassed.

This again can be countered by the not getting involved in things that don't concern us. Without Britain and America, Saddam would never has got the chance to gas those people. It's all a consequence of the same meddling.

America and Britain have no such responsibility, to protect, in the face of an insurrection.

They do when they are the cause. And it would help to "safeguard the sources of petroleum" which is apparently why we are there.

Israel has always had enemies and always will, simply because it is Jewish.

With that attitude, you're probably right. It's not Israel Vs the World unless you make it so. And being Jewish is nothing to do with it. Is the whole world anti-semitic now?

No, I do not agree that people directly outside Israel are the same as those inside Israel [for the most part anyway]. Most non-Jews have a different view on life.

I'd like to hear what this different this view on life is according to Jews. Care to expand?

 

[weltweit]

I have already asked him to explain, so far he has declined.

As far as I am concerned a Jew is the same as a Nigerian who is the same as an Arab who is the same as an Eskimo who is the same as an American.

Just HUMANS the lot of them, all exactly the same.

 

[kebabking]

Without Britain and America, Saddam would never has got the chance to gas those people.

sorry Fez909, i'd have to take issue with you on that point.

i personally don't know the provenance of the CBW that Saddam used to attack Iraqis - though i am aware of the involvement of both the US and the UK in the supply of such things to our benevolent friend - however neither the UK, nor the UK were anything like the main suppliers of offensive weaponry to Saddam.

those dubious honours go to the Soviet Union - by far, and France.

it is, in my view, fatuous to suggest that had UK/US refused to sell him such things he could not have got them elsewhere. thats not a justification of selling him anything, but to say that those who died in CBW attacks carried out by Saddam would have been alive today if the US and UK had not sold him that capability is not just unprovable, it is staggeringly unlikely.

the Aircraft that dispersed the CW at Hallabja were supplied to Iraq by the Soviet Union. one could say that without such generousity Saddam would of had to use the Iraqi postal system to deliver such weapons...

Saddam was a murderous tyrant who butchered his own people, it is he who bares responsibility for his actions - that those who supplied him with that capability bare enormous responsibility is not in doubt - but don't pretend that had he been denied CBW by the UK and US would of faced a problem getting them elsewhere.

 

[rachamim18]

Weltweit: What country do you see approaching civil war? Iraq? Too late. Israel? I hope you do not mean Israel. As for Iraq, it is all for the best that it split up. Every nation in the Middle East is an invention of a Western Power. Among them, only Israel has any kind of histoircally accurate precedent. The Kurds were screwed at every step and I truly hope that they finally realise their national aspirations. Shia will never willingly live with Sunna so that takes care of that. the problem is all tghe other many minorities in that war torn country. They are sure to suffer regardless of which direction it goes.

"What does Rachamim mean by stating that Jews have a different view on life." Well, it is pretty self explanatory. All groups have their way of life, their world outlook, and so on. The Jews have a very ancient way of life. It does not mirror other midEastern groups at all. Life to us is sacred. We do not believe in Heaven or Hell per se. Ergo, we try to make the most of this go around. I could go and on and on...

"What is Rachamim's solution for the Israeli/'Palestinian' violence?" Simply put, the Kadimah Platform. That is all they are going to get now. They were actually offered East Jerusalem as well in the early 90s but declined under Arafat hoping to get it all. Now , whether or not they want it, they are getting all of Gaza, and 96% of the "West Bank," with the addition of 4% of Israel Proper in exchange for the 4% deficit. This will be unilaterally given to them....what they do with it is their decison. Of course my feeling is that they will do exactly what they have done with gaza....Zilch.

They will make a mess of it and complain and use it as a base for terrorism just as they always have. Why so pessimistic? Because I know that of the more than 2 dozen militant groups , ALL have stated publicly that their actual reason for existence is the total destruction of Israel.

Then the world will say, well you did not bargauin on Jerusalem [our holiest city mind you], even though we offered them it almost 2 decades ago. Even though we gave them our other holy shrines [Hebron, etc]. In the end, the violence will continue, because that is their mindset. this is something must foreigners do mot understand. Rather than believe me, just avail yourself to their Charters and Platforms. It is all there in black and white.

"Israel refusing to talk to HAMAS is like the Brits refusing to talk to the IRA." Nope, not at all. The IRA did not state that its goal was the annihilation of all Anglo-saxons worldwide. HAMAS has stated that its goal, its main gioal, is the destruction of World Jewry. It has blamed the Jews for the Holocaust.. It has said Jews control all banks and media. It has said that Jews are resoinsible for all wars since the French Revolution. I can go on but I would hope by now it is clear.

Moono: "That is an untruth in Rach's consciousness." Actually, it happneed in 92 as the Cairo I agreement was being formulated. It was made on the table, not floated. They refused, hands down. this is a fact. Try dealing with reality. Furthermore, since you say it is an untruth, please tell us why all terrorist groups in Gaza and the "West Bank" ALL say they are fully committed to Israel's TOTAL destruction?

 

[rachamim18]

Moono [Part II] : "No offer has ever been made to the 'Palestinians' for a contigious and viable state." Here is where you look very foolish indeed. Please explain to us the premise of the 1919 Partition. No? Too much for you? Then how about todays Kadimah Party Platform? What does the Platform of Israel's ruling government call for Moono? E ven if you are too lazy too research the 1919 offer, and refuse to do the legwork for the Cairo I offer, simply deny the Kadimah Platform. Of course it excludes East Jerusalem and only offers 96% of the "West Bank" but the 4% is offset by 4% of our land in exchange for a bloc of Jewish "Settlements" in the Jerusalem Consolidation. Seems you are not keeping up to date.

You know, even though the above is all very true, I could simply shut you down by offering that noone ever offered either side a contigious state, save for 1919 and only then for the Arabs! We accepted every chance offered for our own land to be reestablished, the Arabs refused ALL offers! Too bad for them though that Kadimah's will be implemented unilaterally within 18 months barring any disaster.

Your blurb on Dershowitz is yet ANOTHER offer! Yes, your Arab source double talks around it but there many others just as I have shown above.


Zoltan: Um, when have I ever said that Iran did not have good relations with the US in the pre-Revolutionary days? In fact, if you follow this forum regularly I have commented at length about how Iran was a great ally of Israel and how it had periphreal involvement in the 67 War. Iran was our number one source of petroleum and used to ship via the Strait of Tiran, etc., etc. I only mentioned 77 and after if you reexamine that post. I also take great pains to always remark that NOTHING is ever black and white.

Fez: Yes, other sources of energy are definitely, without a doubt a smart neccessity. Sadly, Western Democracies are under the sway of corporate donations and we all know where the bulk of those come from. Above and beyond fringe sources I have seen a great deal about viable alternatives that have been squashed in order to preserve that monopoly. One day though, they will not have a choice in the matter.

You are also correct that without the West covering his backside Sadam would have never had the audacity to gas his own citizens. The West is very shady, well one can say the same of all governments really.

Whether or not America and its allies in Iraq are at the root of the insurrection is hard to say. It is like a chicken and egg question. Saddam only managed to hold all those diparate minorities at bay with an iron fist. The same thing will happen in syria if the Alawites ever lose their iron grip. Yes, America , et al are the reason why Saddam is out but one could say it would have happned no matter why he left power so...

"Is the whole world Anti-Semitic now?" Anti-Semtic is an incorrect term. Jews are not the only Semties and many Arabs hate Jews dearly. Would we call HAMAS anti-Semitic? I much prefer "anti-Jewish." The whole world is NOT anti -Jewish but history has shown us that the Jew never prospers for long anywhere, but in his/her own homeland. The Disaporah perfoms a very important function and has existed since the days of our intial settlement here. However, the true homeland for every Jew, even if they are not cognizant of it, is Israel.

My dad, when he was alive, was very big on America. Of course he spke hardly any English and did not have any non-Jewish friends, or even associates. Still, many Jews here continue with this affection for America. Yet here I was the other day, here at home, reading a book published by an American Jew. It tells of the long sirdid history of Jews in America, from chaim Solomon who financed the American Revolution and was never paid back, thus falling into a beggar's life....up to the quotas that stopped Jewish immigration effectively in the second decade of the 20th Century CE. Then it has a rather large section on how FDR sold the Jews out during the Holocaust. In fact, I actually have family that came from Cuba because they were refused entry to America during the Nazi period.

What's my point? My point is that nowhere will you find a land where a Jew can make something of his or her life that offers better opportunities than America. Yet, for all its value, America is still no friend to the Jew. The ONLY land a Jew can count on not to suffer for his/her Jewishness, is Israel.


"On the different views of life held by Jews, you would have to ask specific questions because it is not just summed up in a few lines. You know, we have 27 books of Scripture and our Scripture is a moral code for life. Everything from eating, to handling animals, to seeing rainbows, to having sex is thoroughly codified. There no "what ifs?" Everything is explained and it offers one a certain sense of security. I am no longer observant although my wife, who is a convert mind you, is constantly pestering me to recommit myself to our faith. Still my 13 years of religious based schooling does not lightly escape me [I was botn a Braslav Chassid]. IF you have a question, feel free to ask.

 

[rachamim18]

Weltweit: I have declined? Do you expect instant answers? People have lives. I think I am pretty regular about my posting when not on Active Duty or traveling so I do not know why you would say that. anyway, I responded to yuor post already.

"All humans are the same." Bravo. From a biological sense you are absolutely right. Of course humans wrap themselves in a cloak called culture and this makes all very different from one another. Do you think a Hmong looks at like exactly like an Ibo? We all have some cultural commonalities, like the need for an occasional intoxicant, or the need for love, but we have so very many differences that you cannot just sum it all up in a quaint little post.

 

[bingiman]

that is just plain wrong

 

[weltweit]

"Israel refusing to talk to HAMAS is like the Brits refusing to talk to the IRA." Nope, not at all. The IRA did not state that its goal was the annihilation of all Anglo-saxons worldwide. HAMAS has stated that its goal, its main gioal, is the destruction of World Jewry. It has blamed the Jews for the Holocaust.. It has said Jews control all banks and media. It has said that Jews are resoinsible for all wars since the French Revolution. I can go on but I would hope by now it is clear.

I know that it is widely printed in the media that Hamas and others want the destruction of Israel and this line is usually brought to the debate by Israeli spokespeople to demonise their opponents just as they do when using the word “Terrorist” rather than “freedom fighter” and “technical mistake” rather than premeditated firing of tank shells into civilian areas.

If I was a Palestinian leader trying to motivate young men to fight against the very powerful Israel military machine and state I would have to use strong powerful and motivating language to make them brave enough to take up the struggle. This is what you are referring to except that in your own nations propaganda you use it to make Hamas or Fata or Hizbulla seem like the new generation of Nazis.

Unfortunately the overriding impression that people in Great Britain get from most of their easily accessible media is that Israel is rich well armed brutal and cruel and Palestine is downtrodden oppressed weak and victims of Israel.

As I said just now in the other thread in order to motivate a scared young man to take actions that are likely to lead to his own death considerable motivation is needed, the most simple statement is “death to the enemy” that is what Hamas are saying “death to the enemy” no more no less.

Military leaders have been using such language for generations to motivate their troops against an overpowering enemy.

In fact it does not matter if Hamas really wanted the complete destruction of Israel because all Hamas have is pathetic katuska (whatever) rockets that do not kill anyone and seem only to be fired for the benefit of television cameras. Israel will not be destroyed.

If there is to be a move towards peace Hamas / Palestine will need to recognise Israel and Israel recognise Hamas, they will have to talk, because not to talk is to doom another generation to conflict.

Incidentally there is a new thread in here (a poll) called something like “vote for peace” I would be interested if you could read it and tell me what you think.

 

[weltweit]

Weltweit: What country do you see approaching civil war? Iraq? Too late. Israel? I hope you do not mean Israel. As for Iraq, it is all for the best that it split up. Every nation in the Middle East is an invention of a Western Power. Among them, only Israel has any kind of histoircally accurate precedent. The Kurds were screwed at every step and I truly hope that they finally realise their national aspirations. Shia will never willingly live with Sunna so that takes care of that. the problem is all tghe other many minorities in that war torn country. They are sure to suffer regardless of which direction it goes.

Yes it is my opinion that Iraq is approaching civil war, I think it may be true that more civilians are dying now than under Saddam.

I think if US and GB do leave now it is likely it will be split up but not before a lot more civilians die.

I do wonder if the people were not on the whole better off under Saddam.

"What does Rachamim mean by stating that Jews have a different view on life." Well, it is pretty self explanatory. All groups have their way of life, their world outlook, and so on. The Jews have a very ancient way of life. It does not mirror other midEastern groups at all. Life to us is sacred. We do not believe in Heaven or Hell per se. Ergo, we try to make the most of this go around. I could go and on and on...

My life is sacred and so is that of my family friends and neighbours, and all the Arabs I know also by their very actions with their children and friends show that for them also LIFE IS SACRED.

When I was growing up it was suggested to me that I become a christian, evetually I decided no, I prefer to be a human.

That means I can rub shoulders with Muslims, Christians, Jews or Welsh people.

What you are saying is that Jews should have their own racial state, that is surely racist no?

What about if I say that I am white and Anglo Saxon and Christian and I want my own state filled with people just like me, anyone not like me would be excluded or persecuted, I would be called a racist like the BNP no? or a Nazi?

Most nations have mixes of peoples in their populations why are Jews so different?

I do actually think here, Britain has made life difficult for itself with its policy of multiculturalism as rather than having a lot of different cultures mixing together what we are in many cases seeing is ghettoes of one type or group living side by side with another different group and this leads easily to the worst sort of human behaviour human gang culture and racism (in all directions).

"What is Rachamim's solution for the Israeli/'Palestinian' violence?" Simply put, the Kadimah Platform. That is all they are going to get now. They were actually offered East Jerusalem as well in the early 90s but declined under Arafat hoping to get it all. Now , whether or not they want it, they are getting all of Gaza, and 96% of the "West Bank," with the addition of 4% of Israel Proper in exchange for the 4% deficit. This will be unilaterally given to them....what they do with it is their decison. Of course my feeling is that they will do exactly what they have done with gaza....Zilch.

Well I do not know what “the Kadimah Platform” is, is it a two state solution, does it involve one Palestine for the Palestinians around which they could build their own wall, one wall not two, or not?

If it is two contiguous states with Jerusalem split up between them then I am probably in favour.

They will make a mess of it and complain and use it as a base for terrorism just as they always have. Why so pessimistic? Because I know that of the more than 2 dozen militant groups , ALL have stated publicly that their actual reason for existence is the total destruction of Israel.

No you are a pessimist, you look down on the Arabs, and you believe your own propoganda “They will make a mess of it” if they are given a fair start united as a people it is not at all sure that they will make any such thing. None of the Arabs I know have made a mess of their lives, on the contrary they are doing rather better than me if material posessions are any guide.

And all the Persian speakers I know say that what most Arabs say is *death to the regime in Israel* not death to all Israelis. That is a rather different thing.

Even the terrorists are saying “death to the enemy” which is a common saying in wartime it does not mean that they want to kill all Jews, the regime is their enemy.

Then the world will say, well you did not bargauin on Jerusalem [our holiest city mind you], even though we offered them it almost 2 decades ago. Even though we gave them our other holy shrines [Hebron, etc]. In the end, the violence will continue, because that is their mindset. this is something must foreigners do mot understand. Rather than believe me, just avail yourself to their Charters and Platforms. It is all there in black and white.

Jerusalem is important not just to Jews and Palestinians but also to all Muslims, there is an important mosque there as I understand it.

I don’t know really, I think you are all idiots for your stupid beliefs, I would happily nuke Jerusalem (the buildings and monuments and shrines) myself and let the rest of you argue about which bit of glass remaining you wanted to fight over, but after that you would be fighting with sticks and stones as befits your stupid inter racial dispute.

What you have proven is that you are incapable of living together, you should make a two state solution or someone should have the balls to enforce it on you both and then each of you can very build a big wall around your peoples, because of your stupid beliefs, inside your walls you call both inter breed all you like while you throw stones over the wall at each other.

"Israel refusing to talk to HAMAS is like the Brits refusing to talk to the IRA." Nope, not at all. The IRA did not state that its goal was the annihilation of all Anglo-saxons worldwide. HAMAS has stated that its goal, its main gioal, is the destruction of World Jewry. It has blamed the Jews for the Holocaust.. It has said Jews control all banks and media. It has said that Jews are resoinsible for all wars since the French Revolution. I can go on but I would hope by now it is clear.

Oh Israel will talk to Hamas, you have no choice, you cannot kill everyone who calls themselves a Hamas supporter because the Palestinian people elected Hamas.

Hamas says “death to the enemy” and death to the STATE of Israel but it does not say death to all Jews, you are using propaganda against me, perhaps you even believe it yourself. Arabs that I know are not Nazis, they do not want to exterminate all the Jews, that is fantasy argument.

The Arabs that I speak to all know that Israel and Palestine must recognise each other, (there will be some in Israel and Palestine that will not like that) but it must happen for there to be peace and for both of you to have any chance of living side by side behind your walls in any kind of peace.

You are just humans on both sides of the wall who are confused by your race and your gods and your customs and think you should hate someone. If you remembered when you wake in the morning that you are humans, and then thought long and hard about what other clothes and beliefs you put on you would both be in a better place and I would not be getting angry at what you are both doing to each other.

When you wake up in the morning how do you remember who you should be hating today? Does your society tell you, does you God, does your ethnic makeup?

As far as I am concerned you are both as bad as each other, your leaders have forgotten that their first duty is to BE HUMAN.

God, if there is one does not take sides, you are like two children saying my god is better than yours. You are just humans who have focussed on your differences rather than your similarities.

Support multiculturalism for the Middle East, humans living side by side with humans, but in two separate contiguous states with two big walls surrounding them to make them safe because they think they are different.

edited for spelling and to reduce the strength of language