Does Israel really have Nuclear Weapons?

[weltweit]

nice pic .. does my bum look big in this

My argument is if you are on one of the sides, you are part of the problem.

Simply making / taking sides and then the actions that flow from this wars etc funding other people to fight on your behalf etc is what breeds more war and more terrorism.

Like it or not the USA is now causing more trouble in the world than it is solving, if you wish to ally yourself to George W Bush and follow him on his global exploits or if your country does then you will reap the same consequences.

America is a bull in a china shop.

Actions have consequences.

Simple as that.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

nice pic .. does my bum look big in this

My argument is if you are on one of the sides, you are part of the problem.

Simply making / taking sides and then the actions that flow from this wars etc funding other people to fight on your behalf etc is what breeds more war and more terrorism.

Like it or not the USA is now causing more trouble in the world than it is solving, if you wish to ally yourself to George W Bush and follow him on his global exploits or if your country does then you will reap the same consequences.

America is a bull in a china shop.

Actions have consequences.

Simple as that.

Yes, and Iran's action of attempting to obtain nukes, also has consequences.

 

[weltweit]

Yes, and Iran's action of attempting to obtain nukes, also has consequences.

My point is that it is because of the aggressive actions of George W Bush and the USA that Iran MAY want nuclear weapons.

I do not see any reason why the USA should not assist Iran to get nuclear power generation and treat them as friends, if they managed to behave as friends [each of them] they would both be safer as - people do not attack friends.

However Bush has an agenda of his own and his agenda does involve having and creating enemies [threats where none really exist] for various reasons one of which may be that - the oil is running out.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Like it or not, when it comes to avoiding nuclear annihlation, you and I are on the same side.

We live in the developed world, you see.

If you'd been visiting a friend in the WTC on 911, you'd be dead just like the americans.

And what does this have to do with hating arabs? I hate the thought of dying in a nuclear fire.

I didn't like the idea when it was the Soviets who might have instigated it, and I don't like the idea any better now that it's terrorists.

Perhaps you missed my post where al qaida has announced that Canada is a front and center target, thanks to our role in Afghanistan?

I don't like people who have targeted me and my family and friends for attack, no matter who they are or where they come from.

Btw, I think the drink is getting the better of your faculties; you're usually sharper than this.

hmmm except i don't really drink reoverin alcholics tend not to...

mean while care to name any of you or your friends who have actually been in the firing line.... name the exact occurences of the times when you or your friends or family are targeted for attack precisely rather than some vauge antiquated notion of rage from above... what makes you so speacil that you think (other than abject paranoia) that Al q would target you...

more over care to explain in detail highlighting the relevant corraberatable indisputible evidence you have managed to obtain showing the direct link between the latest mythical bogey man al Q and iran...

Cos if you have it i'm sue the US Govt are jst tiching for a chance to use it and shock and awe us with it...

or could it be that you are still being a paranoid delusional racist that you have been since you arived on these boards with the intent of showing these liberal lefties up for the dirty commie terrorist support pinko bastards they are ...

or do you forget your own words...

why is it every time you're pulled on this wee jonny you fall deadly silent...

could it be your continued vitorl hasn't abaited as neither has your racist intent...

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

My point is that it is because of the aggressive actions of George W Bush and the USA that Iran MAY want nuclear weapons.

I do not see any reason why the USA should not assist Iran to get nuclear power generation and treat them as friends, if they managed to behave as friends [each of them] they would both be safer as - people do not attack friends.

However Bush has an agenda of his own and his agenda does involve having and creating enemies [threats where none really exist] for various reasons one of which may be that - the oil is running out.

oil isn't really runnign out it's merely becoming a competative market place and the fastest and largest ecomony want's more of it.... china... it's more about controlling chinas access to the oil once it's dealt with in euros and eventually yen...

 

[Luther Blissett]

Yes, Israel has Nuclear Weapons. What other weapons do you know of that are effective at keeping US/Russia at bay?

 

[weltweit]

Erm Hi Luther B I don't think Israel is under any threat from the USA, except perhaps that the aircraft loads of money that the US sends them annually might dry up sometime, not a likely scenario though.

And Russia [1] is not a threat . full stop . especially to Israel . if you know different do let me know.

My belief is Israel may have untested nukes or it may have realised that it does not need to have them, it just needs the rest of us to think it has them.

You sound so certain, have you seen them with your own eyes?


[1] where russia was a threat was all the old nuclear weapons they used to have and in many cases probably still have when they had no money to pay the people looking after them, that was a threat of nukes getting into the wrong hands.

 

[weltweit]

oil isn't really runnign out it's merely becoming a competative market placce and the fastest and largest ecomony want's more of it.... china... it's more about controlling chinas access to the oil once it's dealt with in euros and eventually yen...

Hi GarfieldLeChat

That is an interesting angle, not one I would have thought of.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

My point is that it is because of the aggressive actions of George W Bush and the USA that Iran MAY want nuclear weapons.

I do not see any reason why the USA should not assist Iran to get nuclear power generation and treat them as friends, if they managed to behave as friends [each of them] they would both be safer as - people do not attack friends.

From these comments, I assume you weren't following the news wherein it was described the efforts by the EU and others, to find some way to get peaceful nuclear power into the hands of the Iranians, without the ability to get weapons capacity.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

mean while care to name any of you or your friends who have actually been in the firing line.... name the exact occurences of the times when you or your friends or family are targeted for attack precisely rather than some vauge antiquated notion of rage from above... what makes you so speacil that you think (other than abject paranoia) that Al q would target you... ..

Are you asking, what proof do I have that we will soon be targeted for a terorist attack?

I have none, just as I assume you had none re: UK, prior to July 7 two summers ago.

The only reason I think al q might target us, is because they've said so.

.....................

Al-Qaeda warns Canada
Quit Afghan mission or endure attack like 9/11, threat says
Article Tools
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Font: * * * * Stewart Bell, National Post
Published: Saturday, October 28, 2006
OTTAWA - An al-Qaeda strategist has warned Canada to withdraw its troops from Afghanistan or face terrorist attacks similar to 9/11, Madrid and the London transit bombings.

The threat, attributed to a member of the al-Qaeda information and strategy committee, condemns Prime Minister Stephen Harper for refusing to pull out of Afghanistan.

It also refers to Canada's "fanatic adherence to Christianity" as well as its purported attempts to "damage the Muslims" and its support for the "Christian Crusade" against al-Qaeda.

"Despite the strong, increasing opposition to spread its forces in the fire of South Afghanistan, it seems that they will not learn the lesson easily," Hossam Abdul Raouf writes.

"They will either be forced to withdraw their forces or face an operation similar to New York, Madrid, London and their sisters, with the help of Allah."

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=e9f20f44-ec19-470c-9ac3-6c79218d4d91&k=70612

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

or could it be that you are still being a paranoid delusional racist that you have been since you arived on these boards with the intent of showing these liberal lefties up for the dirty commie terrorist support pinko bastards they are ...

or do you forget your own words...

why is it every time you're pulled on this wee jonny you fall deadly silent...

could it be your continued vitorl hasn't abaited as neither has your racist intent...

It must be comforting to you to convince yourself that everyone who disagrees with you, is a racist.

That way, you can demonize that person, and not expend any intellectual energy on the uncomfortable task of confronting difficult ideas that are contrary to your own.

Abdul Qadeer Khan, the father of the islamic bomb, spread nuclear technology from Pakistan to other countries, including Iran and North Korea. It appears he did so for both idealistic, and monetary reasons.

Given the fundamentalist nature of the current govt of iran, one must at least entertain the possibility that they will share their technology with those who share their beliefs and goals.

If you think that the entertaining of such a possiblity is somehow racist, then your mind is likely so rusted shut that there is no reasoning with you.

 

[Dhimmi]

My point is that it is because of the aggressive actions of George W Bush and the USA that Iran MAY want nuclear weapons.

I agree that taking sides is not progressive enough, but I'm not sure how much you really mean it. No offence intended.
What do you think of the aggressive actions of Iran?

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

It must be comforting to you to convince yourself that everyone who disagrees with you, is a racist.

That way, you can demonize that person, and not expend any intellectual energy on the uncomfortable task of confronting difficult ideas that are contrary to your own.

Abdul Qadeer Khan, the father of the islamic bomb, spread nuclear technology from Pakistan to other countries, including Iran and North Korea. It appears he did so for both idealistic, and monetary reasons.

Given the fundamentalist nature of the current govt of iran, one must at least entertain the possibility that they will share their technology with those who share their beliefs and goals.

If you think that the entertaining of such a possiblity is somehow racist, then your mind is likely so rusted shut that there is no reasoning with you.

not everyone

you

now exactly when were you and your famliy threatened precisely?

and those direct links to al q and iran wee jonny...?

if you could stop you bluster and propaganda and direct lies and actaully answer the question.

 

[tangentlama]

Are you asking, what proof do I have that we will soon be targeted for a terorist attack?

I have none, just as I assume you had none re: UK, prior to July 7 two summers ago.

The only reason I think al q might target us, is because they've said so.

.....................

Al-Qaeda warns Canada
Quit Afghan mission or endure attack like 9/11, threat says
Stewart Bell, National Post
Published: Saturday, October 28, 2006
OTTAWA - An al-Qaeda strategist has warned Canada to withdraw its troops from Afghanistan or face terrorist attacks similar to 9/11, Madrid and the London transit bombings.

The threat, attributed to a member of the al-Qaeda information and strategy committee, condemns Prime Minister Stephen Harper for refusing to pull out of Afghanistan.

It also refers to Canada's "fanatic adherence to Christianity" as well as its purported attempts to "damage the Muslims" and its support for the "Christian Crusade" against al-Qaeda.

Clearly the part about fanatical adherence to Christianity is bullshit, since Canada allows Canadian Muslims to practise Sha'ria law in Canada.

 

[weltweit]

I agree that taking sides is not progressive enough, but I'm not sure how much you really mean it. No offence intended.

Hi Dhimmi,

It is simple, I am on the side of the humans.

I take the same view on Israel Palestine, I am on the side of the humans.

What do you think of the aggressive actions of Iran?

I think Iranian support of Palestinians is seen as aggressive by Israel.

I think Iranian insistence that they have a right to Nuclear power is NOT aggressive.

What do you think are the aggressive actions of Iran?

And perhaps at the same time could you pretend you are an Iranian and describe what you would see as the aggressive actions of the USA and perhaps Israel.

 

[weltweit]

From these comments, I assume you weren't following the news wherein it was described the efforts by the EU and others, to find some way to get peaceful nuclear power into the hands of the Iranians, without the ability to get weapons capacity.

Yes you are right Johnny Canuck2 I missed that.

Do you know why that attempt failed?

 

[Dhimmi]

Hi Dhimmi,
It is simple, I am on the side of the humans.

Well that's two of us then, hopefully we could start a trend.

What do you think are the aggressive actions of Iran?

Well the biggest would be the Iran-Iraq war, followed by supporting military action in Lebanon.

And perhaps at the same time could you pretend you are an Iranian and describe what you would see as the aggressive actions of the USA and perhaps Israel.

No thanks, those are oft repeated and well known. I'm more concerned that there's a portrayal of one side being inherently evil and the other pure as the driven snow. That does nothing but prolong the conflict.

 

[rachamim18]

Weltweit: "Bull in a ChinaShoppe." Right, Cause Saddam in the southern marshes turning his Shia into pulverised fish flake was just relaxing ball of love, ditto the Kurdish regions he annihilated in his own country, or Chaldeans and Assyrians he tortured to death, or Jews he turned into life sized puppets powerd by a German Shepard's tongue powering their bums...

While most adults realise by now that Bush's redeoployment there had nothing to do with "freedom or democracy," neither can a rational adult argue that most Iraqis have the ability to lead better lives today sans Hussein.Saddam destabalised the whole region alot more than Bush Jr. ever did, or ever will.

Had France and Germany been more interested in supporting the American ideology instead of seeking to preserve their own little duty free spit of sand [and they are still up to the same tricks in Lebanon] then maybe things would not have spun out half as bad...

Now everybody whines...."Ittttttt's alllll about oillllllllll!!!" Yes, and so? Look around the room you are in. How many of the things you have there are made from petroleum or petroleum based products. The plastics in your computer maybe? In the world we live in, ofssil fuels are a given and Hussein managed to screw with the West's head at every turn. For this reason alone Bush, et al stand justoified in taking him out.

Of course, as an Israeli I am grateful that one of our 40 odd committed enemies is now scratched off the list but that is neither here nor there. That is not why he was desposed, just a boon all the same.

Weltweit: May I ask? How old are you? I am not trying to disparage you in the least but when you offer up juicy tidbits like "America should help Iran develop its nuclear capabilities and welcome them as friends [in doing so]," I seriously wonder on your sanity. Of course were you in your teens [possible even younger?], it might be understandable. After all, when I was in the bracket I would not have loved anyone to recall my political leanings.

For starters, it was Iran that has antagonised America since Day One. Take a good look at those Embassy photos, 1977, in Tehran. Does the bearded spokesman look at all familiar to you? He, and his nation are offically at political loggerheads with America and it has precious little to do with American [then and now] support for Israel.


If someone seeks your utter destruvction it is not exactly prudent to help them towards that end. America has not isolated Iran on the World Stage, Iran did that all by themselves.


As for the last poster, and you, posing opinions as to why Iran hates Israel....There is an Islamic doctrine that calls for any place that has been ruled by Muslims for 5 minutes or more to evermore be Islamic land. Ergo, all of Israel and the lands aound it are Islamic lands and Muslims will never accept Israel as an independant state with a Jewish majority. It just won't happen.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

not everyone

you

now exactly when were you and your famliy threatened precisely?
.

No one has mailed me a letter, if that's what you're asking. I don't think that's s.o.p.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Clearly the part about fanatical adherence to Christianity is bullshit, since Canada allows Canadian Muslims to practise Sha'ria law in Canada.

No it doesn't.

 

[weltweit]

It is simple, I am on the side of the humans.

Well that's two of us then, hopefully we could start a trend.

A trend would be good, the trouble is I think it is likely that many if not most of the humans in Israel and Palestine probably think the same way but their nations and their leaders are still causing fighting.

 

[Dhimmi]

I'd like to think so, trouble is it's not just their leaders, there's plenty of folk making political capital out of it here too.

 

[weltweit]

Weltweit: "Bull in a ChinaShoppe." Right, Cause Saddam <snip>

Hi rachamim18

I stand by the “America is being a bull in a china shop”, that means they are being big and strong but they are clumsy and they are damaging delicate things, often despite their not meaning to.

I am not happy that my country Great Britain follows America slavishly as at the moment, America’s enemies are NOT my enemies. Britain is not the world policeman. If it were it would have intervened in Kosovo / the Balkans much faster, would have stood in between the Hutu and Tutsi, would be in Darfur, would be in lots of places where there are humanitarian reasons to send soldiers to protect civilians and against injustice, in fact if we were the world policeman we would be there with you between Israel and Palestine forcing you both to act like adult nations and find a meaningful fair peaceful settlement to end the fighting for good.

While most adults realise by now that Bush's redeoployment there had nothing to do with "freedom or democracy," neither can a rational adult argue that most Iraqis have the ability to lead better lives today sans Hussein.Saddam destabalised the whole region alot more than Bush Jr. ever did, or ever will.

I am no fan of Saddam but do you know when the former Yugoslavia was ruled by a powerful leader Tito as far as I understand it there was no Christian Serb slaughter of Bosnian Muslims. Tito kept them under control.

Saddam was a brutal leader and he killed and tortured many of his own people kurds also but afaikt there were never daily car and truck bombings while he was in power.

Removing Saddam from power was a good thing, but replacing his regime with what is there at the moment, is not, there are not enough soldiers there are not enough police, there are too many weapons too many bombs.

America and Britain are failing at the moment in their legal duty as occupying forces to protect the civilians in the country Iraq that they are occupying.

Now everybody whines...."Ittttttt's alllll about oillllllllll!!!" Yes, and so? <snip rant about oil>

Thing about resources rachamim18 is that either you pay a fair price or you just take them, just taking them is also called STEALING.

Of course, as an Israeli I am grateful that one of our 40 odd committed enemies is now scratched off the list but that is neither here nor there. That is not why he was desposed, just a boon all the same.

And that is part of the problem, like America itself when you look out of your windows all you see is enemies, wherever you look, and that is despite the fact that you, like America, have the most advanced military in the world.

Weltweit: May I ask? How old are you? I am not trying to disparage you in the least but when you offer up juicy tidbits like "America should help Iran develop its nuclear capabilities and welcome them as friends [in doing so]," I seriously wonder on your sanity.

I prefer not to reveal personal details but let me say that I am middle aged and a parent.

Oh and you look after your own sanity rachamim18 and don’t worry about me I am looking after mine

Re Iran:

There is a saying “keep your friends close and your enemies closer”

You are unable to do that because you are hiding in your armoured bulldozers and tanks and building your settlements behind a big concrete wall designed to keep all your 40 enemies out. It is a fait accompli that you will have enemies, you make more every time your powerful forces kill Palestinians or Lebanese who are all seen as the victims of Israel.

Israel is making enemies, it is very good at making enemies.

As for the last poster, and you, posing opinions as to why Iran hates Israel....There is an Islamic doctrine that calls for any place that has been ruled by Muslims for 5 minutes or more to evermore be Islamic land. Ergo, all of Israel and the lands aound it are Islamic lands and Muslims will never accept Israel as an independant state with a Jewish majority. It just won't happen.

That is what you think, but it is not what I think, I think the humans surrounding Israel are rather more similar to those living inside Israel than you would like to believe.

My opinion is that Israel’s neighbours will reach peace and acceptance of Israel when the Palestinians have a fairer and peaceful settlement and I think you know that must be true. If you do not then I expect your idea of Israel’s future is a permanent state of war.

That is not how I would choose to live but it is up to the people of Israel and Palestine how you live your lives, I speaking personally am not coming over there to help either of you, it is your mess! be good enough to sort it out between you.

 

[weltweit]

I'd like to think so, trouble is it's not just their leaders, there's plenty of folk making political capital out of it here too.

Yes you are right there are a lot of people taking sides, it does not help.

 

[tangentlama]

No it doesn't.

Oh. I thought they were going to allow it in the same way that we're allowed our Beit Din. So you're saying now that Beit Din in Canada is threatened too?

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

No one has mailed me a letter, if that's what you're asking. I don't think that's s.o.p.

so yo haven't had your freinds or family directly threatened at all in fact have you...

 

[weltweit]

so yo haven't had your freinds or family directly threatened at all in fact have you...

Well at least I know what he means, in a way, someone has said Canada is a target.

Great Britain is now at greater risk of terrorist activity because of our actions abroad and with a multicultural society what we do externally in the world will also often have an internal effect.

When we look outward to the world we see multiple cultures and when we look internally at our own population we see the same.

I think the only way multicultural Great Britain, could avoid increased threat of homegrown terrorism is if Great Britain behaved more like Sweden, Switzerland, modern Germany, modern Japan and just decided not to be a small scale global policeman anymore but rather live in peace.

Of course if we did that there would be absolutely no need for British nuclear weapons and as it appears our leaders do want to buy a new nuclear weapons system and do want to contine intervening abroad we are perhaps doomed to an increased threat of homegrown terrorism.

I think muslims believe that an attack on any muslim is an attack on all muslims, interestingly NATO agree with them, to attack any NATO member is to attack them all.

 

[rachamim18]

Weltweit: I understand your feeling that your government is involved in things it shouldn't be but I would ask you to remember that Britain relies on petroleum just like America. The "World Policeman" line is just propaganda. The objective is to safeguard sources of petroleum.


Were things better when Saddam was in power just because there no daily bombings? Well, gassing hundreds of your own people including babies, etc. is pretty gruesome. The bombings are to be expected during a period of extreme transition. Once a permanent transition has been achieved, there will be a semblance of stability, with no worries of being gassed.


America and Britain have no such responsibility, to protect, in the face of an insurrection.


Last I checked, noone was taking Iraqi oil without paying.

Israel has always had enemies and always will, simply because it is Jewish.


No, I do not agree that people directly outside Israel are the same as those inside Israel [for the most part anyway]. Most non-Jews have a different view on life.

"Fairer settlement for the 'Palestinians'." How much fairer do you want? They were once offered all of Gaza, "West Bank," Jerusalem, and refused it!!! Anything fairer would put Israel out of existence.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

so yo haven't had your freinds or family directly threatened at all in fact have you...

Did any of those killed on 7/7 receive direct threats beforehand?

Any personal letters mailed?

 

[weltweit]

Weltweit: I understand your feeling that your government is involved in things it shouldn't be but I would ask you to remember that Britain relies on petroleum just like America. The "World Policeman" line is just propaganda. The objective is to safeguard sources of petroleum.

The people of Great Britain were sold the Iraq war on the grounds that he was threatening us with WMD with 45 minutes readiness, lots of people did not believe this and it has proven to be completely wrong.

There was never any mention of 1) safeguard sources of petroleum or 2) regime change.

We know we were lied to.

Were things better when Saddam was in power just because there no daily bombings? Well, gassing hundreds of your own people including babies, etc. is pretty gruesome. The bombings are to be expected during a period of extreme transition. Once a permanent transition has been achieved, there will be a semblance of stability, with no worries of being gassed.

I am an optimist but now I am worried for your sanity rachamim18 I see a country approaching a civil war rather than one approaching peace with a new government.

I hope that your view is right but do not forget Yugoslavia did not survive.

America and Britain have no such responsibility, to protect, in the face of an insurrection.

I disagree, if you occupy a country militarily you become responsible for law and order. Perhaps your line is that we are not occupying it at the moment? Is that your line?

Israel has always had enemies and always will, simply because it is Jewish.

From optimism to pessimism in the same post (get help rachamim18 why does being Jewish mean that you will always have enemies? I can go to parts of London and there are loads of Jews living side by side (I think it is called Stamford Hill) with Muslims and Nigerians and British and all sorts and no one is an enemy to anyone else they are all peacefull.

Why should it be different for Israel?

No, I do not agree that people directly outside Israel are the same as those inside Israel [for the most part anyway]. Most non-Jews have a different view on life.

I would be interested if you could expand on that, can you explain what you mean? because it does not make sense to me.

"Fairer settlement for the 'Palestinians'." How much fairer do you want? They were once offered all of Gaza, "West Bank," Jerusalem, and refused it!!! Anything fairer would put Israel out of existence.

So what would be your solution to the conflict between Israel and Palestine?

Do you hold out any hope that there could be lasting peace?

It is my feeling that Israel refusing to talk to Hamas is like the British government refusing to talk to the IRA. It was only when the British government started talking to the IRA and Sinn Fein that we started to walk slowly together towards peace. It was worth it.