How can I be "prejudiced" for calling UKIP as I see it? Surely its supporters (like you) are the ones who are prejudiced. After all, it is UKIP, who would much rather live in the past by reviving colonial ideas with things like a latter-day version of Imperial Preference.
It is! I even quoted from their manifesto to show it!
No they wouldn't (unless they were thick or had a vested interest in twisting my words)
Norway doesn't "survive" outside the EU tho does it? They still have to abide by most of the EU's laws but have no say over them. But, to answer your (stupid) question, every country could "survive" outside the EU because every country in the world is "surviving". What you meant to ask was is it in UK's best interests tp leave the EU - well no is what I would say
Proportionally, UKIP and Tories probably have the higher amount of corporate support (ie rich business men) so those two parties, naturally, speak up more for business interests
Erm only four out the 16 do not relate to trade. But what difference does it make? You cannot tell me it's in our best interests to leave the EU if you have no idea what EU laws effect us. All the rules and regulations I hear UKIP moaning about are Pillar 1 and therefore would still be in place should we want to remain in the single market. Unless you can tell me which specific laws we would no longer be bound by, I fail to see what relevance this insistence of yours that trade does not account for most of the EU's laws
Well you are, we've established that. I'm just very interested to find out why you feel compelled to parrot lies about the EU. Do you honestly believe them, or do you knowingly lie to spread false images of the EU?
UKIP has a full policy manifesto and it would be rightly condemned as such a single issue party if it did not. It does believe in free market capitalism under the constraints of the democratically expressed will of the people of the UK. The other major parties don't even believe in abiding by the democratic will of the people. I presume nothing. I haven't even presumed you are an EU supporter though it has been hard not to.
No I don't.
Revealing of what? Any misrepresentation was entirely unintended on that point or any other point you can find. I did not accuse any other party of being xenophobic. I just didn't explicitly say they were not because it never occurred to me that you might choose to think that's what I think! I am not accusing any other party of being xenohobic. OK? You and others on the other hand have explicity said UKIP is xenophobic time after time and the only justification offered so far is that many others feel the same way. That's a pitiable defence of a position.
You don't need to justify your views on the BNP or the NF for me. I know you're opposed to both and as I am. We have no argument there. You do need to justify your view of UKIP though if want me to "put a sock in it". I should say that I will still disagree with you anyway and reserve the right to say so with justification which you will in turn disagree with of course!
Any racists are ejected from the party as soon as they are found out. UKIP is not a racist party. I cannot answer your question about "United Country Party" as it's the first I've heard of it. And the New Britain party never got off the ground. I believe some of its members belong to the other major parties now. You can carry on if you want to.nino_savatte said:
You seem to be justifying the position I claim UKIP has while at the same time telling me that's not their policy!
You've been trying to claim I said Norway etc don't have social policies etc
Again you contradict yourself. You say trade is the key issue, and that Norway has to abide by EU trade laws, yet you then say Norway has control over key issues...so what key issues would they be that are not trade?
UKIP are the mouth of corporate interests. That's their ideology (pretty much everyone in UKIP is old-guard Tory)
It's obviously not preferable is it, if countries outside the EU desperately want to join it.
You think the other 26 countries would allow British businesses to have an unfair advantage over EU businesses?
Thread after thread you parrot UKIP lies about the EU. If you can point me to anything I've said about the EU that you think is a lie I'd be happy to correct you
Your permission to disagree is gratefully acknowledged. I disagree with your view that UKIP is xenophobic. Nick Griffin wanted to work with UKIP and was probably angry at being rebuffed. Griffin is no friend of UKIP's. I'm surprised he ever thought his overtures would be accepted. Apart from leaving the EU the parties are very different and there is no common ground.
You're wrong. I'm not playing coy and and I haven't misread anything (deliberately or otherwise) you have posted unless you can explain how. And stop patronising. It will not bring the debate to a close. I'll just cut remarks like those in future. They aren't worth replying to.
I asked you to justify your view that UKIP is xenophobic because it is a very nasty little slur and xenophobia is now monitored here. The EU also has a unit based in Austria tasked with monitoring it. It matters to me because I am a UKIP supporter.
UKIP hasn't said a country does not need friends. We are not in any way independent now with over 100 000 pages of the EU's acquis communautaire to abide by. No elected UK party can touch it or the way it relates to us other than in a limited interpretation.
UKIP does not want that. If that is the claim to which you referred it is false. No UKIP policy has ever said it does not want business or social regulation.
Again I have not contradicted myself. You are assuming that an independent UK would be forced to abide by EU trade rules. No such assumption should be made. Negotiations haven't and might never even start so you can't know that.
I still disagree. You can say it over and over again and I'll still disagree. It's laughable to suggest UKIP is the mouth of corporate interests. Corporate interests would be funding them and not the mainstream parties if they were and they are not.
I don't have any hang ups about Europe. I think I've said before I've lived on continental Europe and I mostly loved it and its people. Your probable EU sympathies are relevant to this debate as I think you might have a vested interest that you are not willing to declare. I have a real dislike of bureaucratic corrupt undemocratic institutions running the British government. The fact that British politicians have a hand in running those institutions does not make them acceptable. Don't accuse me of digressing - you invite the replies with your comments.
UKIP isn't claiming a monopoly on democracy. The modern mainstream parties however can make no claims on democracy. The Labour party is the latest fine example in denying the electorate a referendum of the Lisbon Treaty which politicians in Europe have freely stated is the same as the Constitution. Not forgetting the similarities in the policies put forward by the mainstream parties. There are no real differences between apart from differences in interpretation. Not much democracy there.
Your permission to disagree is gratefully acknowledged. I disagree with your view that UKIP is xenophobic. Nick Griffin wanted to work with UKIP and was probably angry at being rebuffed. Griffin is no friend of UKIP's. I'm surprised he ever thought his overtures would be accepted. Apart from leaving the EU the parties are very different and there is no common ground.
You're wrong. I'm not playing coy and and I haven't misread anything (deliberately or otherwise) you have posted unless you can explain how. And stop patronising. It will not bring the debate to a close. I'll just cut remarks like those in future. They aren't worth replying to.
I asked you to justify your view that UKIP is xenophobic because it is a very nasty little slur and xenophobia is now monitored here. The EU also has a unit based in Austria tasked with monitoring it. It matters to me because I am a UKIP supporter.
Same to you.
UKIP hasn't said a country does not need friends. We are not in any way independent now with over 100 000 pages of the EU's acquis communautaire to abide by. No elected UK party can touch it or the way it relates to us other than in a limited interpretation.
Thank you for making clear that you did not accuse UKIP of being a racist party. That's appreciated as accusations of racism are often joined to accusations of xenophobia. I still reject your accusations of xenophobia and UKIP is not a narrow interest party. As I said I've never even heard of the United Country party and it couldn't have had many members. The New Britain party was also very small and could be used against the other parties its members joined as much as it could against UKIP. If the record is sticking for you again - tough shit. Perhaps you spend too much time trawling tawdry little muck raking websites?
I asked you to justify your view that UKIP is xenophobic because it is a very nasty little slur and xenophobia is now monitored here. The EU also has a unit based in Austria tasked with monitoring it. It matters to me because I am a UKIP supporter.
UKIP want unrestricted free trade with the EU but they want to abolish EU social policies and business regulations
"Anyone would think none of the people in any countries outside the EU have any employment rights reading your views." Is what you said
The contradiction was you saying Norway has control over "crucial" issues because it is not a member of the EU. You said trade was the "key" issue, but admitted Norway has no control over this area of law. So what are the "crucial" issues Norway has control over that is not trade?
You're confusing party funding and ideology. UKIP ideology is firmly behind the corporate interest. You've indirectly admitted as such yourself (acknowledging UKIP is right wing and wants to make it easier for businesses by abolishing EU regulation on them)
Well you have Switzerland and Norway, which are two fairly rich countries that don't want to join, but last time I checked the UK, France and Germany all supported EU membership so that disproves your "better off countries don't" argument right there
The EU has been involved in many many trade disputes (or wars if you want) with America, what makes you think they'll look at the UK any different if we start giving ourselves an unfair advantage or don't play by the rules?
Someone from UKIP accuses someone else of spreading propaganda?! LOL!
Yawn, I don't expect you to agree with me and I can see this going round and round in circles. If you are hoping to win me around to your way of thinking, you may as well give up now.
Trade disputes are inevitable but trade continues nevertheless. You really think they'd want to seriously jeopardise their relationship with a market of 60 million people and one of the world's largest economies? Would Germany for instance stop selling us their cars? The "rules" would be re-drawn under the auspices of the WTO and we'd stick to them. The British are generally good at sticking to the rules. And as for an "unfair advantage" don't make me laugh. They'd have the free will to follow us if they feel that way.
UKIP, in their own manifesto, and by your own admittance, is right-wing, and wants less regulations for business and less employment rights. Tell me who that benefits - the employer or employee?
Ok let me get this right, the only issues you can come up with is one that the UK already has (our currency), one the UK has a veto over (CFP) and one that pretty much the whole of the EU bar France and Poland agrees needs reforming (CAP)? That's your reason fro wanting out of the EU?!
There is nothing "fair" about right wing ideology. It's by a minority for a minority. You claim UKIP wants more of a balance between employer and employee, but that's just another way of saying you want more power for businesses and less rights for employees (you know, the ones you claim to be acting in their best interests)
That's irrelevant. You said only poor countries want to join, yet some of the wealthiest nations on Earth are members, so it disproves your point
I think you and UKIP have proved there will never be a "real public debate" on the subject
WTF are you talking about? Who said anything about trade stopping? What did you think I meant, that the EU would impose sanctions like those against Zimbabwe?!
Well for a start, you claim UKIP is some caring social party with the best interests of the working class at it's heart, rather than the remnants of the Thatcherite Tory Party. You claim UKIP is not xenophobic, yet their manifesto states they want to dramatically reduce the amount of immigrants and asylum seekers to the country (despite the enormous 'right wing' benefits they give to businesses). As for all the other UKIP propaganda you spread, I've already quoted it every time I've replied to you...
That's just funny!UKIP said:
Not a great party for the Muslims it seems! I wonder, are Muslims the only ones capable of treason or encouraging violence? Because I'm pretty sure that the actions of the IRA in the past would be considered treasonous, and the BNP certainly encourage violence, yet UKIP's policy seemingly only applies to Muslims. Wonder if goneforlunch could explain that one?UKIP said:
I could easily say there is nothing "fair" about left wing ideology too. But neither your statement or mine would be true. I think some left wing policies have in the past been very good and some have been very bad and the same would be true for the right. Your interpretation of UKIP's policy is of a left wing and pro-eu perspective and it is to be expected you would disagree with it.
I answered your point but as you have since developed that point I'd say the some of the wealthiest nations on earth are not members so it does not disprove my point in any way. The eu's wealthy nations are wealthy in spite of the eu not because of it.
The lack of "real" public debate is not UKIP's fault. The established political parties do not want a real debate any more than they want referendums. 75% of our laws are now made in undemocratic and unaccountable EU institutions. Debate about whether that is a good thing and what would happen if we were free to set our own policies has been deliberately quashed.
UKIP is not xenophobic; it does not have a morbid fear of foreigners. It does not even dislike foreigners. There are very good reasons for dramatically reducing the numbers of immigrants (but not genuine asylum seekers). Our public services and infrastructure cannot cope. It drives down the wages of those already here and particularly of the unskilled. The right wing benefits they give to workers are a right wing policy too far.
