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Dockers attacked in Strasbourg

Random said:
So FFS, you were posting up this thread about the dockers' actions in an attempt to score points off a couple of people that you're having an argument with?

i was asking a question about their activities in strasbourg. You can offer an answer, maybe have an opinion on it, or not. Your choice.

Let me put itanother way, when you heard about the dockers kicking off in strasbourg, what was your view? How did this reflect on your more engrained views of 'activist stuntism'/mass spectacles/etc?

If anything it is getting people to look how their political viewpoints are formulated.


Steely silence seems to be the stock response.
 
catch said:
Steely silence? Or perhaps more interested in providing some positive publicity about the dockers protest, and plenty of other news about working class struggles, than using it as an excuse for silly point scoring on the internet?

so the information is out there & people are busy discussing the in & outs over on treelover's thread (!) but what this thread is about is the dockers activities in strasbourg. Do you have an opinion on it? What did you think when you heard about it?

There you go a couple of questions, nothing hard or strenuous, no attacks (although the fact that people see it as an 'attack' in itself is revealing).
 
of the 13 dockers arrested for the strasbourg riots:

8 belgians were given jail sentences (between 1 & 4 months), 2 others were were given suspended sentences,
1 french docker was jailed for a month, another had his sentence suspended
a spanish docker was given a 5 month suspended sentence.
 
montevideo said:
unlike ketamine consumption & graf perhaps?

Look, I really don't want to get into this whole Wombles/Libcom feud, I think it's really silly. :)

Do you really think Libcom is a bad resource? :confused:
 
jimmer said:
Look, I really don't want to get into this whole Wombles/Libcom feud, I think it's really silly. :)

Do you really think Libcom is a bad resource? :confused:

fair enough.

I think it has serious problems, organisationaly & structurally. Starting & ending with those involved.
 
montevideo said:
fair enough.

I think it has serious problems, organisationaly & structurally. Starting & ending with those involved.

Is this your way of saying that you don't like the people who run the site, so you won't accept that the site is good or useful?
 
montevideo said:
organisationaly & structurally.
form over content ;)

monte, when I heard about the strrikes and protest the day before, I put an article up announcing it, when I heard about the tear gas/smashed windows on parliament building, I put up a quick positive article up on it. another libcommer did the most recent one. I don't feel any necessity to spell out my views on these events on this thread, since they should be very clear from the articles linked, and it's very obvious what the intention of this thread is - i.e. it's got fuck all to do with what actually happened.

Do you have a link for those sentences?
 
montevideo said:
i was asking a question about their activities in strasbourg. You can offer an answer, maybe have an opinion on it, or not. Your choice.

You were asking a loaded question, packed with in-joke phrases, directed at a few people that you'be been having running arguments with. I don't see what use you hoped the thread to have for people who aren't squabbling over the political meaning of the term 'anti-social'.

For myself, I think that symbolic protests have an important part to play; I've always said that. There is, however, a big different between a protest movement using stunts, and a social movement using them.
 
Is this your way of saying that you don't like the people who run the site, so you won't accept that the site is good or useful?

It is an appalling resource, due almost exclusively down to those involved. Would it be a better resource with different people, depends entirely on what you want a resource to be.

catch said:
form over content ;)

monte, when I heard about the strrikes and protest the day before, I put an article up announcing it, when I heard about the tear gas/smashed windows on parliament building, I put up a quick positive article up on it. another libcommer did the most recent one. I don't feel any necessity to spell out my views on these events on this thread, since they should be very clear from the articles linked, and it's very obvious what the intention of this thread is - i.e. it's got fuck all to do with what actually happened.

Do you have a link for those sentences?

The article about what happened is stasbourg is a direct lift from the bbc website.

Steely silence then. You have no opinion on what actually happened with the dockers in strasbourg?
 
Random said:
You were asking a loaded question, packed with in-joke phrases, directed at a few people that you'be been having running arguments with. I don't see what use you hoped the thread to have for people who aren't squabbling over the political meaning of the term 'anti-social'.

For myself, I think that symbolic protests have an important part to play; I've always said that. There is, however, a big different between a protest movement using stunts, and a social movement using them.

hmm, oddly enough...

7. Our intentions, as anarchists/anti-authoritarians, should not be fixated on any dogmatic and simplistic pole - 'always-violent' or 'never-violent'. Rather, we should try to make coherent analysis of the broader social context so as to identify the potential role of an active confrontation as a demo. The most important thing is to project a clear social-political meaning to the demo, whether we confront or not; a meaning connected with the broader social struggle against state and capital.
http://www.wombles.org.uk/g8/10theses.php
 
montevideo said:
It is an appalling resource, due almost exclusively down to those involved. Would it be a better resource with different people, depends entirely on what you want a resource to be.

Regardless of your personal differences with those involved, it is an excellent resource, and does a lot for the spreading of libertarian politics. Have you actually looked at it? We have thousands of pages of content, a massive library, a regularly updated newswire, a large history section, and growing organise and thought sections, as well as providing web hosting and forums for a variety of anarchist groups.

Which is why people actually visit it:

Traffic Rank for libcom.org: 295,129

Traffic Rank for wombles.org.uk: 3,595,698

:)

What the dockers did in Strasbourg was blatantly fucking cool... :D
 
jimmer said:
Regardless of your personal differences with those involved, it is an excellent resource, and does a lot for the spreading of libertarian politics. Have you actually looked at it? We have thousands of pages of content, a massive library, a regularly updated newswire, a large history section, and growing organise and thought sections, as well as providing web hosting and forums for a variety of anarchist groups.

Which is why people actually visit it:

Traffic Rank for libcom.org: 295,129

Traffic Rank for wombles.org.uk: 3,595,698

:)

What the dockers did in Strasbourg was blatantly fucking cool... :D

ah yes interweb statistics, always reliable.

Again it depends what you want a resource to be. The newswire is simply media echo; transfering info from other sites (which are more informed, more informative & generally provide a better service). Simply linking to these sites would i think be more ingenuous & honest of you.

The library at larc has a wider range of books, pamplets, magazines bigger newspaper archive with a greater political scope, & a greater variety of subjects (woefully underused, but there you go), what your library provides then is an easy access limited service. If convenience is useful then you have a point, but to suggest it is 'massive' is strectching it a bit, by a long shot.

The network aspect could potentially be the most useful & indeed interesting part, groups & organisations have a communal point of contact to exchange ideas, activities, information etc, (strangled at birth by the living abortion that is the forums). Of course for networking to have any credibity all the groups involved would have to have equal input & integral to the decsion making process of the site. This would of course involve a bit of organisation & graft (2 things libcom people have no experience in). It would also mean taking control out of the hands of a few individuals & opening up the resource to collective responsibility (something the libcom peole have no experience in).

As a port of call for lazy radicals run privately by a group of individuals it is indeed a resource. A useful one to whom, i have no idea?
 
hmm Monte have you actually looked at the library on Libcom recently? It has a fuckinh massive amount of literature, it's really impressive.

And as for the forums well it serves a function in that we have seen the development of a certain tendency of young people who probably would have drifted away from the "political scene" through burn out and dispair at activism. The level of debate on libcom varies hugely from thread to thread but at it's best it is leap years a head of the theorectical debates anywhere else.

Face it your problems with Libcom are entirely personal, and hence you can't bring yourself to admit that is a very good resource, one that is a damn site fucking better than the WOMBLES excuse for a website.
 
revol68 said:
hmm Monte have you actually looked at the library on Libcom recently? It has a fuckinh massive amount of literature, it's really impressive.

And as for the forums well it serves a function in that we have seen the development of a certain tendency of young people who probably would have drifted away from the "political scene" through burn out and dispair at activism. The level of debate on libcom varies hugely from thread to thread but at it's best it is leap years a head of the theorectical debates anywhere else.

Face it your problems with Libcom are entirely personal, and hence you can't bring yourself to admit that is a very good resource, one that is a damn site fucking better than the WOMBLES excuse for a website.

Hi Darlings, just a few observations;) Quantity doesn't make quality you know, and to me Libcom is an ultra left website, with startling gaps. For example, the miners (you know, they were the 'vanguard' of the working class, over a million of them after the second world war) are not there at all except for 'the Miners Next Step'. Which is wierd. Also no Class War? It looks like the partiality/prejudices you accuse others of are your own. Perhaps you attempt too much, e.g. the section on crime and punishment is extremely small etc...
 
Attica said:
Hi Darlings, just a few observations;) Quantity doesn't make quality you know, and to me Libcom is an ultra left website, with startling gaps. For example, the miners (you know, they were the 'vanguard' of the working class, over a million of them after the second world war) are not there at all except for 'the Miners Next Step'. Which is wierd. Also no Class War? It looks like the partiality/prejudices you accuse others of are your own. Perhaps you attempt too much, e.g. the section on crime and punishment is extremely small etc...

fuck me would you ever fuck up about the fucking miners! DO you think of nothing else than EP Thompson and the fucking miners!

and as for Class War well considering it's suppoused to be a library of theory and not cackhanded tabloid sloganism, of course, Class War won't feature.
 
montevideo said:
ah yes interweb statistics, always reliable.

Sorry, that was a bit of a cheap shot, but I do think those stats are fairly reliable. :D

Again it depends what you want a resource to be. The newswire is simply media echo; transfering info from other sites (which are more informed, more informative & generally provide a better service). Simply linking to these sites would i think be more ingenuous & honest of you.

Not all the news is copied, we do write a fair bit ourselves, but we're not quite at the stage yet where we can write everything ourselves. We're always looking to expand the news and find new people to get involved so we can improve it.

The library at larc has a wider range of books, pamplets, magazines bigger newspaper archive with a greater political scope, & a greater variety of subjects (woefully underused, but there you go), what your library provides then is an easy access limited service. If convenience is useful then you have a point, but to suggest it is 'massive' is strectching it a bit, by a long shot.

I think several thousand texts is pretty 'massive' but that could be a difference of opinion, all I know about the LARC library is some books appeared there after disappearing from Freedom so can't comment on whether it's better or not. I do think accessibility is important, having a great resource that no one can use isn't much good, thousands of people view pages in our library each month, how many people use LARC's one? The library is another aspect of the site we're constantly working on, and trying to get more people involved with.

The network aspect could potentially be the most useful & indeed interesting part, groups & organisations have a communal point of contact to exchange ideas, activities, information etc, (strangled at birth by the living abortion that is the forums). Of course for networking to have any credibity all the groups involved would have to have equal input & integral to the decsion making process of the site. This would of course involve a bit of organisation & graft (2 things libcom people have no experience in). It would also mean taking control out of the hands of a few individuals & opening up the resource to collective responsibility (something the libcom peole have no experience in).

I can't say I'm a huge fan of the forums, there are some quality threads on there, but others aren't so good. I think your points about networking and the decision making process of the site could apply if the site had been setup by a large number of groups. But it wasn't, I don't see why we should be accountable to anyone but ourselves, Libcom is our project we've done the hard work, why should we let other people/groups participate in our decision making processes (which is very democratic and non-authoritarian). The Libcom Group is well organised, works hard at mainting such a large resource, and we take collective responsibility for what we do. Trying to accuse us of not believing in those principles or not working along those lines is a bit out of order.

As a port of call for lazy radicals run privately by a group of individuals it is indeed a resource. A useful one to whom, i have no idea?

That's a bit harsh, I think half a million page views a month suggests that it is a useful resource, otherwise people wouldn't be visiting it would they! I wish you wouldn't use your personal and political difference with people in our group to condem the whole resource.

:)

Attica - we're aware of the gaps, they're something we're working on, as I've said above the site is constantly expanding. I'm not trying to say the site is a totally comprehensive resource for anyone interested in class struggle, but it's a start and probably the closest to a comprehensive resource than anything else I've seen.
 
revol68 said:
and as for Class War well considering it's suppoused to be a library of theory and not cackhanded tabloid sloganism, of course, Class War won't feature.
I wouldn't have a problem with Class War stuff going in the library, I think it's important for people to see what Class War was/are about and what they thought/think.

:)
 
Attica said:
Hi Darlings, just a few observations;) Quantity doesn't make quality you know, and to me Libcom is an ultra left website, with startling gaps. For example, the miners (you know, they were the 'vanguard' of the working class, over a million of them after the second world war) are not there at all except for 'the Miners Next Step'. Which is wierd. Also no Class War? It looks like the partiality/prejudices you accuse others of are your own. Perhaps you attempt too much, e.g. the section on crime and punishment is extremely small etc...

Stuff on miners -

The miners' struggle: the need for autonomous organization against the unions
Wildcats In The Appalachian Coal Fields

Stuff on Class War -

Death of a Paper Tiger - Reflections on Class War
 
montevideo said:
The article about what happened is stasbourg is a direct lift from the bbc website.

there are three articles, and only one is a direct lift from the BBC afaik.
Steely silence then. You have no opinion on what actually happened with the dockers in strasbourg?
You've not even offered yours, and you started the thread. :confused:
 
montevideo said:
The newswire is simply media echo; transfering info from other sites (which are more informed, more informative & generally provide a better service).

http://libcom.org/news/article.php?story=tube-strike-interview-080106&query=tube
http://libcom.org/news/article.php?story=broadway-market-occupation-11-12-05&query=broadway+market
http://www.libcom.org/gallery/v/broadwaymarketoccupation/

That's two big original features in the space of a month, along with lots of shorter articles that were done from scratch (although not first hand information but what do you expect?). Or perhaps you think they're media echo because they both ended up on different sites later on? Where articles are lifted entirely from other sources, they're always attributed.

Simply linking to these sites would i think be more ingenuous & honest of you.
you mean like having an rss feed from them? or the links to newswires on the front page of the main site? http://www.libcom.org/news/feeds/
:confused:

Will you be making the same criticisms about infoshop news, anarkismo.net, indymedia or in fact any other non-mainstream news source (and all mainstream ones who use AP or Reuters)?

If convenience is useful then you have a point, but to suggest it is 'massive' is strectching it a bit, by a long shot.
around 2000 articles, pamphlets and full-length books, added to on a daily basis. We've been concentrating up to now on restoring an archive that was taken off-line about three weeks after the library started (endpage.com) which has taken the second half of last year to put in. That's being finished off and tidied up, and we're slowly trying to diversify the content beyond that core content - including stuff that's not currently on-line elsewhere.
 
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