Do you support the University markers strike?

[k_s]

Yeah, but fuck people in the north- real people's futures are at stake here.

 

[k_s]

The important thing is diamond's been right all along and no one is listening

 

[JKKne]

Yeah, but fuck people in the north- real people's futures are at stake here.

Trust us to trailblaze the way into saving this University year!

 

[llantwit]

Despite all the right wing rhetoric and obfuscation from Diamond and k_s, it pays to keep glancing up at the poll, btw.

Maybe that's why lecturers have so little respect for their students: they realise they're gullible naive fools who will be sold any old nonsense as long as it's proffered under the banner of progressive, liberal, left-wing social justice.

You think you've got it so spot on, don't you? You have no idea.

It needs to keep being restated - lecturers don't want to be on strike, and they feel really bad about putting the students out. They are only sticking at it because they've been shafted for too long, now.

Support this strike and you support the comodification of learning- the reinforcement of the idea that knowledge is a product which can be witheld. Few lecturers would wish to classify their field of work as 'manufacturing', but that seems to be the way things are heading.

This is just offensive nonsense. The lecturers aren't witholding the students' 'knowledge', they're witholding their labour - from the vice chancellors, their employers. If you think that because they're educators they are somehow exempt from the right to withdraw their labour as a last-instance bargaining tool then you're wrong.

Both sides are responsible for the students. And both sides should be trying to sort it out rather than pointing fingers and passing the buck.

Both sides are trying to sort it out, as you know. But 'finger-pointing' and 'buck-passing' seem to be perrenial in industrial action cases.
As I'm sure you understand, there is a fundamental and quite understandable conflict of interests at stake.
Those in power (the managers, the employers, the VCs) want to get away with paying their employees as little as possible. That's generally how these things work. Those employees have very few ways to convince their employers that they should be paid more. Asking nicely for more money rarely works, you see.
Pretty much the only way of getting a better deal for themselves is to take industial action and withold their labour, thus forcing their employers to take notice. There are always negative consequences of industrial action, and nobody likes taking it, but sometimes it's unavoidable.
Just out of interest, do you disagree with any of that Diamond?

On the 12% pay offer - it ammounts to very little over the rate of inflation over 3 years (which is what they get anyway, pretty much). The offer was a joke, and more importantly, was part of ongoing negotiations. If the union balloted the members on every tin-pot offer (especially the FIRST offer) that was made in negotiations it would make the process of negotiating a joke. The union members who negotiate have a mandate from the membership to do just that - negotiate. That's how it works.

 

[strung out]

Excellent post there llantwit. As far as I can tell, the only reason you could possibly oppose the strike is if you're worried about your oh so precious degree being delayed by a month or two (which is a very small minded attitude to take) or if you are one of those people in charge at the institutions.

Having spoken to my lecturers, who have told me their concerns about neglecting their duties to their students, I had to say to them that I believed their need to be far greater than mine. It's a shame that some selfish students can't see the same.

 

[k_s]

This is just offensive nonsense. The lecturers aren't witholding the students' 'knowledge', they're witholding their labour - from the vice chancellors, their employers. If you think that because they're educators they are somehow exempt from the right to withdraw their labour as a last-instance bargaining tool then you're wrong.

But their labour in terms of marking exams is not economically productive in the same way their research output is. And they're not witholding knowledge, they are witholding degrees, which are conflated with knowledge out here in the real world. Surely stopping research work would hit vice chancellors harder?

And yes my degree is 'oh so precious', it is what i have been working for for the past three years. The idea that lecturers can so callously withdraw the right of students to get what they have earned doesn't sit well.

 

[Diamond]

Despite all the right wing rhetoric and obfuscation from Diamond and k_s, it pays to keep glancing up at the poll, btw.



You think you've got it so spot on, don't you? You have no idea.

It needs to keep being restated - lecturers don't want to be on strike, and they feel really bad about putting the students out. They are only sticking at it because they've been shafted for too long, now.


This is just offensive nonsense. The lecturers aren't witholding the students' 'knowledge', they're witholding their labour - from the vice chancellors, their employers. If you think that because they're educators they are somehow exempt from the right to withdraw their labour as a last-instance bargaining tool then you're wrong.


Both sides are trying to sort it out, as you know. But 'finger-pointing' and 'buck-passing' seem to be perrenial in industrial action cases.
As I'm sure you understand, there is a fundamental and quite understandable conflict of interests at stake.
Those in power (the managers, the employers, the VCs) want to get away with paying their employees as little as possible. That's generally how these things work. Those employees have very few ways to convince their employers that they should be paid more. Asking nicely for more money rarely works, you see.
Pretty much the only way of getting a better deal for themselves is to take industial action and withold their labour, thus forcing their employers to take notice. There are always negative consequences of industrial action, and nobody likes taking it, but sometimes it's unavoidable.
Just out of interest, do you disagree with any of that Diamond?

On the 12% pay offer - it ammounts to very little over the rate of inflation over 3 years (which is what they get anyway, pretty much). The offer was a joke, and more importantly, was part of ongoing negotiations. If the union balloted the members on every tin-pot offer (especially the FIRST offer) that was made in negotiations it would make the process of negotiating a joke. The union members who negotiate have a mandate from the membership to do just that - negotiate. That's how it works.

I will come back to you on all of this but for the moment I can only make a few brief comments before I dash off to get pissed (just finished my finals).

All I would say is that your theoretical appreciation of industrial relations is self-serving and reductive to the point of being an irrelevant truism. The issues here revolve around the nature of the industrial action and how it is being run. k_s makes some salient points about research and publication obligations that I would agree with but before I add anything else I need to get drunk.

p.s. Tedix - do you realise how idiotic it is to belittle something that I have worked fucking hard for over four years. Furthermore it is hypocritical to try and label students selfish while saying that the academics have a just cause. Surely it's obvious that both are acting in their own self-interest.

 

[Santino]

I've made this point already, but no one seemed to respond to it, so I'l say it again in a different way. Why should lecturers expect to be paid at the moment if they are withholding their labour?

 

[JKKne]

I've made this point already, but no one seemed to respond to it, so I'l say it again in a different way. Why should lecturers expect to be paid at the moment if they are withholding their labour?

Depending on the University, they aren't

 

[llantwit]

But their labour in terms of marking exams is not economically productive in the same way their research output is. And they're not witholding knowledge, they are witholding degrees, which are conflated with knowledge out here in the real world. Surely stopping research work would hit vice chancellors harder?
And yes my degree is 'oh so precious', it is what i have been working for for the past three years. The idea that lecturers can so callously withdraw the right of students to get what they have earned doesn't sit well.

All I can do is assure you that they haven't 'callously' done anything - if you think that then I suggest you talk to some of the lecturers involved with the action (just don't accuse them of callous behaviour from the outset, otherwise any dialogue might well be cut short). Like I said before - they do this really unwillingly. They don't WANT to harm students.

On the question of withdrawing research labour - that's a good point. My guess about this would be that they didn't go down this road because it would only have any real effect around the time of the RAE, which is a while off still. Would like to find out more about this, though. I think that you're right in assuming it would have a far more disruptive effect as far as money coming into the Uni goes - maybe too disruptive for the unions to go for? I don't know.

 

[Santino]

Depending on the University, they aren't

But are the lecturers expecting to be paid? Are they going to be shocked if they open their pay slip and find it a bit light?

 

[JKKne]

But are the lecturers expecting to be paid? Are they going to be shocked if they open their pay slip and find it a bit light?

My friend lectures in Local Studies at Northumbria and they've been told they won't be paid. I think its the same for quite a few others too

 

[llantwit]

...
All I would say is that your theoretical appreciation of industrial relations is self-serving and reductive to the point of being an irrelevant truism. The issues here revolve around the nature of the industrial action and how it is being run. k_s makes some salient points about research and publication obligations that I would agree with but before I add anything else I need to get drunk.
...QUOTE]

Look, diamond. You really should take a look at your fucking tone throughout this thread. I don't think I've ever read such arrogant posts on these boards, and that's saying something. It's your tone as much as anything you've said that's pissed me off, I think. And then you've got the audacity to say this:

p.s. Tedix - do you realise how idiotic it is to belittle something that I have worked fucking hard for over four years.

You've been a student, ffs! Yes it's hard work, and you might well have been working hard for a while. But this is about lecturers' livelihoods! They work hard every day of their lives for relatively* small financial reward, and when they have the audacity to stand up for themselves, you can't even give them a modicum of respect. Everything you've said since the beginning of this thread has been 'belittling' in the extreme.

And the reason I went back to basics was to ask you a question about what you think about the nature of Industrial Action. You ignored it, so I'll ask it again. I asked you if you agreed with the points I made above about people having the right to withold their labour. Perhaps you might have a look at this when you've sobered up.

I suspect, you see, that you'd be making similar arguments about any industrial action. If this is true then I'm not going to waste my 'self-serving', 'reductive', and irrelevant' little brain on a thatcherite little pondscum lickspittle. If it's not true, however, then that's a relief.


*I know they aren't exactly on the breadline, but for what other job do you train 8 years often at great financial cost to start off on a salary of around 20 grand?

 

[strung out]

p.s. Tedix - do you realise how idiotic it is to belittle something that I have worked fucking hard for over four years. Furthermore it is hypocritical to try and label students selfish while saying that the academics have a just cause. Surely it's obvious that both are acting in their own self-interest.

I'm just about to graduate after four years of university as well, so don't fucking give me all this "I've worked fucking hard" bullshit. What difference will it make to your life, realistically, if you get your degree delayed by a few months? Near to nothing. It's your selfish "but I've worked so hard for this" crap that the institutions are using to emotionally blackmail many lecturers into not striking with. If the lecturers were made to feel less guilty about wanting to get paid a fair wage, then this problem would have been solved years ago at far less inconvenience to everyone.

 

[llantwit]

But are the lecturers expecting to be paid? Are they going to be shocked if they open their pay slip and find it a bit light?

What the fuck? Of course they know that by taking industrial action they might not get payed for the work they don't do. Are you suggesting the thought hadn't occurred to them?

 

[Dowie]

But their labour in terms of marking exams is not economically productive in the same way their research output is. And they're not witholding knowledge, they are witholding degrees, which are conflated with knowledge out here in the real world. Surely stopping research work would hit vice chancellors harder?

Totally agree - if they are going for a half-baked strike option then why take it out on the students? Holding back on all publications and research is surely an alternative option and doesn't affect others - the dispute is between them and the universities so I don't see why the students have to be dragged into it.

I really don't agree with comments that students who don't support the strike are being selfish - if anything lecturers stopping students from graduating as part of a pay dispute are being rather selfish.

 

[JKKne]

I was initially surprised at the NUS not supporting the strike but then again, they don't really have any influence or point anymore

 

[Nemo]

Out of interest what's your take on the failure to ballot the members on the 12.6%?

I'm not surprised in the least; the offer (12.9% over three years iirc) only amounted to a tiny real increase, and given that the whole premise of this strike is that lecturers' pay has lagged behind, it's hardly likely to placate people.

Holding back on all publications and research is surely an alternative option and doesn't affect others

How long do you think that that would take to work? The whole thing would drag on for months and the universities could probably go for a year or so before even feeling anything.

if anything lecturers stopping students from graduating as part of a pay dispute are being rather selfish.

I think the chances are that the vast majority of graduations will happen anyway, even if it's with a partial transcript. But more generally, how else are the lecturers supposed to put pressure on their employers? If it doesn't hit them somewhere, it doesn't work.

I was initially surprised at the NUS not supporting the strike but then again, they don't really have any influence or point anymore

NUS are indeed a load of crap. I'm increasingly of the view that they achieve very little and certainly don't justify the affiliation fees.

 

[JKKne]

From what I can gather my local NUS branch makes a potload of money, spends nothing on its facilities and is only ever noticed when elections come up, in which I doubt anyone apart from candidates friends vote

Plots NUS coup

 

[ViolentPanda]

Do I support the strike? Yep.

Does it affect me? Yep.

Am I arsed about it having a bad effect? Not at all. In the scheme of things it makes little difference.

I hope that if any of those people on Urban who don't support the strike ever become lecturers that they'll find out how much this strike benefitted their wage packet and hand that sum back to the pay dept, or pay it into union funds, but I doubt they will. Such people are usually self-interested hypocrites.

 

[k_s]

From what I can gather my local NUS branch makes a potload of money, spends nothing on its facilities and is only ever noticed when elections come up, in which I doubt anyone apart from candidates friends vote

Plots NUS coup

Yes yes yes. Imagine an NUS not run entirely by soulless public school cunts who just want something to put on their CV next to their three years with the lacrosse team. My university's student union spends most of its time encouraging life-threatening levels of drinking in exchange for big fat cheques from all the evil nightclubs.

 

[k_s]

I suspect, you see, that you'd be making similar arguments about any industrial action. If this is true then I'm not going to waste my 'self-serving', 'reductive', and irrelevant' little brain on a thatcherite little pondscum lickspittle.

Now really, claiming diamond opposes all industrial action just because she has problems with one specific (and lets be honest, atypical) strike action is reductive isn't it? I think we can do away with the inverted commas. Also, pondscum is not an adjective. Sorry.

 

[catinthehat]

Totally support them. Lecturers in uni are getting the same attacks that lecturers in FE have had on their pay and conditions since incorporation. None of the lecturers I know are that interested in the cash side of things but they do get very pissed at the constant additions to workload, bigger classes, more teaching hours, more paperwork, more meetings and less time with students. All my marking is done at home - as I suspect is the case in HE. My contract is for 38 hours and I never do less than 50 - its the same with everyone I work with. FE staff didnt fight back - much - and now they pretty much do what they like with us. I would like to think that at some point academic staff across the whole spectrum start to fight back because ultimately its about protecting the idea of education, research, thinking. Students dont matter to the policy makers and enforcers despite their endless banging on about it - its the data they produce which means plenty of arses on seats (recruitment) keeping them on the course (retention) and ensuring they pass (acheivement) - throw in competition and performance pay and you have students on the wrong courses being pulled through and passed at all costs and an increasingly dumbed down curriculum. One of Blairs projects is to try and make the UK a global flogger of education so theres cash for short term projects, initiative overload and money for grand schemes that never go anywhere. Core "business" suffers. Lecturers are just about the last bastion where any kind of fight back is possible but imho its a lost battle already. The whole edifice depends on the massive amounts of free labour donated by lecturers. Im pretty certain that most of the students looking for work post graduation would not be happy with taking a job where you are routinely expected to donate evenings and weekends for no pay - yes you maybe will notice if your marks are not released (and note that the HE lecturers are not refusing to do the marking its just that they are not going to pass on the marks so they are still doing the work) - but you would notice more if your lecturers only worked their paid hours. This industrial action is far from a selfish campaign for more cash.

 

[JKKne]

Yes yes yes. Imagine an NUS not run entirely by soulless public school cunts who just want something to put on their CV next to their three years with the lacrosse team. My university's student union spends most of its time encouraging life-threatening levels of drinking in exchange for big fat cheques from all the evil nightclubs.

Where did it all go wrong

That's probably another thread, not worth of derailing this one

 

[Nemo]

Where did it all go wrong

1922?

 

[JKKne]

1922?

I was thinking 1945

 

[llantwit]

Now really, claiming diamond opposes all industrial action just because she has problems with one specific (and lets be honest, atypical) strike action is reductive isn't it? I think we can do away with the inverted commas. Also, pondscum is not an adjective. Sorry.

If you'd quoted the rest of the post you'd see that I posed it as a question. A genuine one - but one that I 'suspect' I know the answer to. I might, of course be wrong. Diamond might well only support industrial actions that don't affect her.
This is a common affliction, and one that can be avoided by a bit of fellow-feeling, empathy, and good old solidarity aided by the knowledge that you too might one day have to take industrial action and rely on the support of people in your community who will be adversely affected by said action.
The quotation marks are to highlight exactly how arrogant and offensive diamond is being - I am after all, quoting her.
The hyperbolic offensive (and grammatically incorrect - that education you paid for wasn't all for nothing was it?) insults are also to highlight to Diamond what it feels like to have someone go over the top in their condemnation of you (something that Diamond has done to lecturers in general in the most offensive manner from the start of this thread).

 

[Nemo]

And the VC of UEA is acting like a Union-busting cunt.

 

[JKKne]

Well I though the Vice Chancellors fully deserved their 28% pay rise

*cough*

Edit to add...I was asked to leave my own University Union Bar this morning after I posted an article on the NSU web page attacking the local NUS decision not to support the strike, the actual NUS President, supported it.

So, I asked to see our Puppet President, and he came down, and I told him what I thought of him and his mates, and that the Union is falling down, in disrepair and generally shit and thay you only ever see he and his cronies when its election time and that they were being spineless, and he went in a total huff and said I should leave now

Then I get an email from the Vice Chancellors Office warning me over my conduct (they're actually in bed together...Union and Chancellor)

fuckers

 

[nino_savatte]

This isn't a strike. It's action short of a strike.

And btw, students, coming on with an arrogant spoilt brat sense of entitlement is not the best way to endear yourselves to your overworked, underpaid lecturers.

Learn a bit of fucking manners, stop smoking hash, hand your fucking essays in on time, and be fucking grateful.

Well said.