Do you support the University markers strike?

[Diamond]

You think that'll end the strike quickly? It's far more likely to prolong it because the UCEA will think that if they sit on their hands they won't have to shell out on payrises.

No. That's exactly my point.

The 'action short of a strike' won't end quickly because of the poor negotiating strategy and ineffective tactics on behalf of the lecturers. As a result the lecturers have lead themselves into a deadend on the negotiating front while the universities can afford to let things drag on for a bit as the tide of opinion turns against the lecturers.

 

[Nemo]

No. That's exactly my point.

The 'action short of a strike' won't end quickly because of the poor negotiating strategy and ineffective tactics on behalf of the lecturers. As a result the lecturers have lead themselves into a deadend on the negotiating front while the universities can afford to let things drag on for a bit as the tide of opinion turns against the lecturers.

You still don't seem to have got the message that the universities can't afford to let it drift either. For them, bad publicity is bad publicity no matter who gets the blame.

 

[Diamond]

You still don't seem to have got the message that the universities can't afford to let it drift either. For them, bad publicity is bad publicity no matter who gets the blame.

That's true but what I pointed out earlier is that there's been very little publicity.

So far you've argued that within the confines of HE everyone knows about it and through word-of-mouth reports among returning foreign students a crucial section of potential students will know about it, but the bottom line is that for this action to be truly effective it needs national and international coverage.

That's not going to happen now because it's too late.

Blair's dominating the news and in a months time some football teams in Germany will have a kickabout that will dominate the press through to July.

Either way the longer the dispute drifts the more damage it will have on lecturers because the balance of public sympathy is turning against them.

 

[2 Hardcore]

Many of them live very comfortable lives, in nice houses, spend afternoons in pubs and have research leave in which they have 13 weeks to produce a couple of articles. Nice work if you can get it.

I'm glad you put that qualification there. But I still would argue that you're talking about a minority.

You're certainly not talking about me - I've been a lecturer/researcher for 13 years; until last year, I worked on renewable fixed-term 2 and 3 yearly contracts so no job security, and no -one willing to give me a mortgage (unless I coughed up 20-25% deposit) for that 'nice house'.
I have never taken my full quota of annual leave because of workload.
I never spend afternoons in the pub.
And we are expected to churn out those articles alongside teaching, research etc - to be permitted study leave would require very substantial writing commitments (eg a book or two; several articles and some book chapters).

I enjoy my job, I want my students to do well, but I don't want the employers taking the piss.
(rant over)

 

[Nemo]

That's true but what I pointed out earlier is that there's been very little publicity.

So far you've argued that within the confines of HE everyone knows about it and through word-of-mouth reports among returning foreign students a crucial section of potential students will know about it, but the bottom line is that for this action to be truly effective it needs national and international coverage.

And you think it's not getting that? If people are looking for universities in the UK, the chances are they'll look at the educational press, in which case they'll know all about the industrial action which is going on. And then later on when there's a spate of law suits, there'll be further adverse publicity.

That's not going to happen now because it's too late.

You have a very limited view; you assume that it's only significant if it bites you this year, and that it'll only affect the current admissions round.

Either way the longer the dispute drifts the more damage it will have on lecturers because the balance of public sympathy is turning against them.

I'll say it again. IT. DOESN'T. REALLY. MATTER. BECAUSE. FOR. THE. UNIVERSITIES. BAD. PUBLICITY. IS. BAD. PUBLICITY.

 

[Diamond]

You have a very limited view; you assume that it's only significant if it bites you this year, and that it'll only affect the current admissions round.

...

I'll say it again. IT. DOESN'T. REALLY. MATTER. BECAUSE. FOR. THE. UNIVERSITIES. BAD. PUBLICITY. IS. BAD. PUBLICITY.

I'm just looking at the short-term negotiating stance admittedly and in the long run an agreement will be reached. What I'm trying to point out is that the whole thing has been a bit hamfisted and consequently the negotiating position of the lecturers has been weakened. That's leading to some pretty odd decisions from the Unions' negotiators such as the one they made yesterday, which can only undermine the loyalty of lecturers who were wavering.

Yes it's bad publicity for the universities. BUT it's not that bad because there's not much of it and there won't be for the forseeable future. AND they have a ready-made excuse that mitigates their position thanks to the position of the unions. It's still bad but it's not nearly as effective as it should have been.

 

[LilMissHissyFit]

Of course it isn't a strike, it's a half-hearted cop-out that has been shown up to be a very poor negotiating tactic.

My opposition is not based on a sense of entitlement.

I am angry a the hypocritical nature of the 'action short of a strike', I'm angry at the myopia that allows lecturers' unions to demand huge portions of the university budget without recognition of other more pressing areas such as library stocks, but most of all I'm angry at four years essentially wasted at one of the top universities in this country being taught by a bunch of muppets who can't even be arsed to fully mark my essays, organise courses with accessible reading lists or even just once properly conduct a seminar rather than letting it lapse into silence.

I'm not at university to endear myself to lecturers and as far as manners go I'll never show respect to people who only offer condescension. We'd hand essays in on time if we were under the impression that they were given more than just a cursory glance and we'd be grateful if there was anything to be grateful for.

if you didnt endear yourself to lecturers at ours youd get precisely nowehere. Treat them like human beings and give them the respect you deserve and I think you'll find many of them ae wonderful people who will bend over backwards to help you out.

sounds like perhaps theres a bit of karma here, get what you give and all that

 

[k_s]

The whole ethos of cramming as many students as possible onto every course- itself a natural consequence of tuition fees- is ruining higher education in this country IMO. Lecturers have too many students, and so not enough time to mark work properly or to genuinely engage with students. This is not the lecturers fault, it is the fault of bean-counting vice chancellors and a soulless education policy. The effort put in by my lecturers and the support they give students has been has been fantastic over the years considering their circumstances; you can tell these people really want to teach. This is why this strike simply doesn't fit in my mind- i can't imagine my teachers wanting to sell their students down the river. Naive perhaps since that is what they now appear to be doing, but i suspect sabre-rattling union bigwigs are behind this, not lecturers in general.

Higher education could use some drastic changes- but there is no basis for any kind of reform if students are not respected. Right now i feel like a bargaining chip in some giant pissing contest and that is not endearing me to academia in any way whatsoever. Much as i hate the fact that i need a piece of paper to 'prove' i've spent the last three years working hard and trying to learn- that piece of paper is important to me. Not just in terms of putting it on a CV, i will need a degree to go on and study in the future. The AUT appears to have been sucked in to the government's evil scheme and is treating education as if it were a stock market.

Support this strike and you support the comodification of learning- the reinforcement of the idea that knowledge is a product which can be witheld. Few lecturers would wish to classify their field of work as 'manufacturing', but that seems to be the way things are heading.

 

[strung out]

so you're not in favour of the strike then?

 

[strung out]

By the way, lecturers are not selling their students down the river. They are exercising their right to protest against the apalling pay they get. I as a student in no way see that as selling me down the river. The only effect this will have on me personally is that I may graduate later than usual. If students aren't prepared to accept this small sacrifice in order to support their striking lecturers, they can fuck off imo.

 

[Diamond]

The whole ethos of cramming as many students as possible onto every course- itself a natural consequence of tuition fees- is ruining higher education in this country IMO. Lecturers have too many students, and so not enough time to mark work properly or to genuinely engage with students. This is not the lecturers fault, it is the fault of bean-counting vice chancellors and a soulless education policy. The effort put in by my lecturers and the support they give students has been has been fantastic over the years considering their circumstances; you can tell these people really want to teach. This is why this strike simply doesn't fit in my mind- i can't imagine my teachers wanting to sell their students down the river. Naive perhaps since that is what they now appear to be doing, but i suspect sabre-rattling union bigwigs are behind this, not lecturers in general.

Higher education could use some drastic changes- but there is no basis for any kind of reform if students are not respected. Right now i feel like a bargaining chip in some giant pissing contest and that is not endearing me to academia in any way whatsoever. Much as i hate the fact that i need a piece of paper to 'prove' i've spent the last three years working hard and trying to learn- that piece of paper is important to me. Not just in terms of putting it on a CV, i will need a degree to go on and study in the future. The AUT appears to have been sucked in to the government's evil scheme and is treating education as if it were a stock market.

Support this strike and you support the comodification of learning- the reinforcement of the idea that knowledge is a product which can be witheld. Few lecturers would wish to classify their field of work as 'manufacturing', but that seems to be the way things are heading.

I'd agree with the vast bulk of that. My university is closer to a production line factory than an academy.

 

[strung out]

What has that got to do with whether you support a strike or not?

 

[LilMissHissyFit]

By the way, lecturers are not selling their students down the river. They are exercising their right to protest against the apalling pay they get. I as a student in no way see that as selling me down the river. The only effect this will have on me personally is that I may graduate later than usual. If students aren't prepared to accept this small sacrifice in order to support their striking lecturers, they can fuck off imo.

I agree with you in part. I dont think I;d feel that way though if I had a place on a graduate scheme or similar depending on getting a certain grade and some 'temporary' grading not being acceptable and affecting my career/job prospects

 

[Diamond]

What has that got to do with whether you support a strike or not?

Not a trememdous amount but I've already laid out above why I think the strike is a poor idea, badly executed.

 

[k_s]

By the way, lecturers are not selling their students down the river. They are exercising their right to protest against the apalling pay they get. I as a student in no way see that as selling me down the river. The only effect this will have on me personally is that I may graduate later than usual. If students aren't prepared to accept this small sacrifice in order to support their striking lecturers, they can fuck off imo.

Then perhaps a little dialogue between students and lecturers would be good? It would be nice if someone had asked me if i was willing to make this 'sacrifice' of yours. My main problem is essentially the lack of respect shown to students- if they aren't treating us like simple bargaining chips then they would do well to try an explain this to their students, because from down here in the cheap seats it looks like the piss is being taken in a big way.

 

[strung out]

Then perhaps a little dialogue between students and lecturers would be good? It would be nice if someone had asked me if i was willing to make this 'sacrifice' of yours. My main problem is essentially the lack of respect shown to students- if they aren't treating us like simple bargaining chips then they would do well to try an explain this to their students, because from down here in the cheap seats it looks like the piss is being taken in a big way.

But it's not the responsibility of the lecturers. It's the responsibility of the institution. They're who you pay your money to and they then employ the lecturers. If the lecturers aren't getting paid enough, then they have the right to go on strike and they have no obligation to the students whatsoever. If the lecturers didn't feel like they had a duty to the students then this strike would have happened a lot sooner. Unfortunately the institutions have always counted on the fact that lecturers will back down through some sense of duty to the students. Well this time the lecturers shouldn't back down. They need to have the balls to strike and damn the consequences because otherwise they will get nowhere.

If you feel the need to be angry with someone, blame the twats in charge who aren't giving the lecturers what they desreve. It's a credit to the lecturers I have spoken to that they have been so open and honest about what they are doing and why.

 

[k_s]

My university has already negotiated a pay deal which has been accepted by its lecturers- quite what else they are expected to do to get their employees doing their job is a mystery to me.

 

[Diamond]

But it's not the responsibility of the lecturers. It's the responsibility of the institution. They're who you pay your money to and they then employ the lecturers. If the lecturers aren't getting paid enough, then they have the right to go on strike and they have no obligation to the students whatsoever. If the lecturers didn't feel like they had a duty to the students then this strike would have happened a lot sooner. Unfortunately the institutions have always counted on the fact that lecturers will back down through some sense of duty to the students. Well this time the lecturers shouldn't back down. They need to have the balls to strike and damn the consequences because otherwise they will get nowhere.

If you feel the need to be angry with someone, blame the twats in charge who aren't giving the lecturers what they desreve. It's a credit to the lecturers I have spoken to that they have been so open and honest about what they are doing and why.

You see that's just bollocks and it displays the outstandingly reductive and polarised thinking that props up this whole farce.

Both sides are responsible for the students. And both sides should be trying to sort it out rather than pointing fingers and passing the buck.

I can't believe you're falling for this rubbish about the responsibilty devolving exclusively onto either side.

Maybe that's why lecturers have so little respect for their students: they realise they're gullible naive fools who will be sold any old nonsense as long as it's proffered under the banner of progressive, liberal, left-wing social justice.

 

[Diamond]

My university has already negotiated a pay deal which has been accepted by its lecturers- quite what else they are expected to do to get their employees doing their job is a mystery to me.

Which one is that?

I knew the strike was pretty patchy and that many people are starting to see sense and depart from the unions' absurd negotiating strategy, but the only place I've heard of is St. Andrew's.

 

[zenie]

What a bunch of cunts people are

 

[strung out]

What solution would you suggest then?

 

[k_s]

I'm at nottingham- the one lecturer who took the time to explain what was going on made it pretty clear that them striking is just a union thing and won't actually affect them one way or another. Counterproductive much?

 

[strung out]

I'm at nottingham- the one lecturer who took the time to explain what was going on made it pretty clear that them striking is just a union thing and won't actually affect them one way or another. Counterproductive much?

I can see you know a lot about it then

 

[Diamond]

What solution would you suggest then?

Well for starters the AUT could have balloted their members on the 12.6% offer. It may not be what they want as union leaders, but lecturers on the ground here (Edinburgh) are a little bit peeved that they haven't been consulted and that the democratic process seems to have been neglected. The impression I get is that on campus is that the vote would have been in favour.

 

[Diamond]

What a bunch of cunts people are

Productive....

 

[Nemo]

My university has already negotiated a pay deal which has been accepted by its lecturers- quite what else they are expected to do to get their employees doing their job is a mystery to me.

The whole point is that this is a national strike about national pay scales. The universities would love to make local settlements because it would effectively break the Unions' capacity for collective bargaining. That's why the AUT was so dismissive of the settlement offered at St. Andrews. That's also why staff at universities where there are no particular issues regarding pay are involved.

Also, re. the wider issues regarding students and lecturers, if you want to know your tutors' positions on the strike, there is a very simple way to find out: ask them. Just remember not to be hostile and not to accuse them of deserting their students.

 

[Diamond]

The whole point is that this is a national strike about national pay scales. The universities would love to make local settlements because it would effectively break the Unions' capacity for collective bargaining. That's why the AUT was so dismissive of the settlement offered at St. Andrews. That's also why staff at universities where there are no particular issues regarding pay are involved.

Also, re. the wider issues regarding students and lecturers, if you want to know your tutors' positions on the strike, there is a very simple way to find out: ask them. Just remember not to be hostile and not to accuse them of deserting their students.

Out of interest what's your take on the failure to ballot the members on the 12.6%?

 

[Combustible]

How can you expect them to reconsider action unless they have been involved in negotiations. The universities refuse to negotiate and now seem to expect that the unions have an obligation to accept whatever offer they are made.

Were the firefighters being selfish by going on strike? The impression I get is lecturers pay has been a problem for ages and this is the only way of bringing the matter to a head.

 

[Diamond]

How can you expect them to reconsider action unless they have been involved in negotiations. The universities refuse to negotiate and now seem to expect that the unions have an obligation to accept whatever offer they are made.

Were the firefighters being selfish by going on strike? The impression I get is lecturers pay has been a problem for ages and this is the only way of bringing the matter to a head.

As far as I understand 12.6% was the revised offer on the table last week when the negotiations broke down because the AUT refused to take the offer to its members.

So technically an offer was made during negotiations and the AUT refused to reconsider the action.

 

[JKKne]

Students at Newcastle will be graduating this year, the University Board have passed an emergency measure to ensure graduation will take place

Durham are about to follow suit and Northumbria aren't bothering as only 3% of their lecturers are involved