Do you have to be more complicated than something to understand it?

[fudgefactorfive]

Read my post again. I talk - like you did - about "models" of something *already created*.

Then read again the rest of my post, where I talk about "*be* it or *created* it".
Read also the word *or* carefully, and then again all the rest too

I did already read it more than once.

I give you a lot of personal attention already, Aldebaran, in fact, I am running out of ways of trying to explain why you make no sense - but I am actually here to talk to other people too

 

[fudgefactorfive]

It must be a very lively corpse then, since creation is still ongoing.

decay is busy

 

[Aldebaran]

I did already read it more than once.

1.Obviously not properly.
2.Projecting your versions of what I write onto my posts, doesn't miraculously make them into your version.

I give you a lot of personal attention already, Aldebaran, in fact, I am running out of ways of trying to explain why you make no sense - but I am actually here to talk to other people too

Likewise.
That I make no sense to you is because of what I said above, combined with the fact that you constructed a frame of reasoning for yourself and lack the imagination to look beyond it (or maybe you can look beyond it, but you refuse to do so). Hence you are stuck into a circular argument that is no argument, since based on unsound premises.

salaam.

 

[fudgefactorfive]

or it could just be that you're wrong

*shrug*

 

[Aldebaran]

Of course, which then implies that everyone who believes God is the (un-created) Transcendent Creator of All is wrong.

salaam.

 

[J77]

In terms of creating things, I think that something which is created needs to come from something which has a higher sense of order than itself; ie., the arrow of time, entropy argument.

Are things with more order necessarily more complex? I think I've run into a wall over what "complicated" means...

 

[fudgefactorfive]

In terms of creating things, I think that something which is created needs to come from something which has a higher sense of order than itself; ie., the arrow of time, entropy argument.

Are things with more order necessarily more complex? I think I've run into a wall over what "complicated" means...

no, order can be a very simple informationless desert.*

for me, complex in this context means more information-dense

it's not necessarily true that order winds down - yes, the general tendency of the universe is for entropy to increase, but, order can be increased temporarily on a local scale, by certain kinds of physical system

* that's desert, as in barren wilderness, not dessert - I'm not saying order is a custard flan

 

[sleaterkinney]

Same problem for you: God is not "a thing" and not "a being" and not an "entity". God = God. Which goes beyond any human comprehension.

If it's beyond human comprehension then you have no way of knowing if it exists or not, true?

 

[Aldebaran]

If it's beyond human comprehension then you have no way of knowing if it exists or not, true?

Do you comprehend the universe?
Does it exist for you?

salaam.

 

[sleaterkinney]

Do you comprehend the universe?
Does it exist for you?

salaam.

Yes and Yes.

 

[J77]

for me, complex in this context means more information-dense

it's not necessarily true that order winds down - yes, the general tendency of the universe is for entropy to increase, but, order can be increased temporarily on a local scale, by certain kinds of physical system

mmm...

I can't get my head around the concept of being "information-dense" - perhaps you could elaborate...?

For the latter point, OK - I take as an example the idea that freezing of water creates order, and we (as humans) can invent a mechanism for doing this.

We are more complicated than the process to freeze water, so are more complicated things necessary to create order from disorder?

I think this is going off on a tangent - and I'm rambling...

Perhaps the question is one of "understanding"... I'm a bit lost

 

[Aldebaran]

Yes and Yes.

Interesting. Can you explain the universe to me in all its detailed detail?

salaam.

 

[fudgefactorfive]

I can't get my head around the concept of being "information-dense" - perhaps you could elaborate...?

Well, on a very simple level, imagine two sheets of A4 paper. One has a single giant number printed on it - the other is crammed with the first hundred thousand digits of pi which you need a magnifying glass to read.

Then think of a network of nodes. A network with two nodes can only have one connection. A network with three can have three connections. A network with four can have six connections ...

It can't be true that created things have to be less complicated than the thing which creates them - because creation doesn't have to be instantaneous. Given enough time, I could maybe create something more complicated than I am. And as laptop pointed out, the network created by the interactions between its nodes is usually more complicated than just the sum of the nodes (as long as you have more than three nodes).

If it was literally true that everything is created by something more complicated than itself, then all the most intelligent entities capable of the greatest understanding would only have existed in the distant past (although I guess there may come a time, such as the Degenerate Age, when this is actually true). But we know that entropy can go into reverse on local scales, temporarily - or we wouldn't be having this discussion, we'd be a pile of slime.

I guess the next question is "what is information" Not sure I can answer that without going off to read, although I think I used to be able to.

uhhhh I think this is just waffle, isn't it

 

[Zeppo]

Slightly off thread but in school I remember my chemistry teacher saying that we needed an alien to come down to sort humans out because humans do not have the brain capacity to solve issues we are involved in.

I was young and thought bollocks but do we need another species - aliens to save us?

 

[samk]

Slightly off thread but in school I remember my chemistry teacher saying that we needed an alien to come down to sort humans out because humans do not have the brain capacity to solve issues we are involved in.

I was young and thought bollocks but do we need another species - aliens to save us?

They may be already here, laughing quietly at us

Or we may build them (AI)

 

[fudgefactorfive]

or they may build themselves if we kickstart them

or we may rebuild ourselves

which is why I never understand people that talk about things which are in theory "understandable", but not by humans - how much do humans have to change before you can't count them as human any more

a million years' worth?

how about the middle of next week, that do you?