Do you consider yourself to have 'spiritual' needs?

[danny la rouge]

"Doesn't" is two words.

It's one word. Does not is two.

But, no. I don't consider I have spiritual needs.

Unless you count things like "peace and quiet" and "enjoying nature" and "this is nice scenery, I'm feeling very relaxed" as spirituality.

 

[Brainaddict]

I do feel the need to express myself, to feel connected to other people, and to do what I think is right, if that's what you mean by some kind of 'secular spirituality', then yeah, I suppose I do have spiritual needs, though I'd never refer to them as such because it strikes me as a bit of a silly way to talk about it.

Out of interest, is there a name you would attach to this set of behaviours?

 

[Crispy]

Out of interest, is there a name you would attach to this set of behaviours?

I'd use "Morals" or "Ethics"

 

[8ball]

The sense of 'connectedness' is probably the bit we need a new word for, something less ambiguous and loaded than 'spiritual'.

 

[phildwyer]

It's one word. Does not is two.

Wrong. "Doesn't" is also two words. "N't" is an abbreviation of "not."

 

[8ball]

Go and Google 'contraction apostrophe'.

Silly boy.

 

[danny la rouge]

"N't" is an abbreviation of "not."

That's right. But you join the abbreviated not, "n't", onto the does. See, no gap. Making it one word instead of two.

It's a compound word. Does + n't = doesn't. However does + not is not compounded to make doesnot; the words remain distinct.

Hyphenating also makes two words into one compound word.

 

[Crispy]

1.5 words as a compromise?

 

[Brainaddict]

On the one hand I could be annoyed that phildwyer (and those who bother to react to him) have taken over another thread, but I guess I should feel grateful - probably no one would have posted at all if it hadn't been for him. At least he has spared me the ignominy* of failing to get the thread to a second page, even if it is two pages of nonsense

*In addition this post has given me the opportunity to look up the correct spelling of ignominy - turns out I've been spelling it wrong all these years.

 

[In Bloom]

*dragging runaway thread back onto rails*

I'd use "Morals" or "Ethics"

It's not just about morality or ethics though, it's also about emotional needs, which I suppose is as good a term as any.

I think that when it comes down to it, a feeling of alienation from nature (and a consequent need to feel "connected" to the world as we encounter it) is an innevitable result of the human condition. Not sure how useful it is to separate off those needs into a separate category from others.

 

[story]

I'm interested in your original question, Brainaddict.

I do think that I have spiritual needs. I'm not as clever, nor as pedantic as Phildwyer, so bear with me if I get some of the semantics muddled, but this is what I mean:

To me, "spiritual" means having some sense of Spirit, or great Spirit, or the Numinous. I feel the need for a spiritual dimension in my life, because I feel the need for some sort of connection with what I consider as Sacred. For me, this sacredness most readily and easily takes the form of Nature, or maybe Gaia.

If I don't take time to turn towards the Sacred from time to time, I feel the lack of it. I can best explain by saying what I gain by doing so. When I make time, or take time, to spend time turning my mind and heart towards the Sacred, I feel more expansve, more open-hearted, more open-minded, more forgiving and gentle. It also gives me a reciprocal sense that the Universe (or great Spirit, or Gaia, or Spirit) is opening towards me.

I don't mean that I feel like some sort of benificent sentience is looking on me favourably - Spirit is neutral, and is not sentient in any definable way. More as if my open, medatitive state is the default setting of the Universe and I am tuning in to it.

Not sure if any of this makes sense - never tried putting it into words before.

And no - its nothing to do with having a crutch to protect me against fear of death. I think that blinking out of existance at the moment of death is as likely as any other possibility, and no less desireable to me. The worst outcome I can imagine is to be intact as myself, in some sort of Christian-type heaven, alongside everyone who has ever lived. What a horror that would be! Verily a Hell!

 

[bluestreak]

do blowjobs count as spiritual?

 

[In Bloom]

Maybe it's just me being odd, but reading the last two posts one after the other makes me giggle

 

[fudgefactorfive]

Do you feel that your life is incomplete unless you pay attention to some 'spiritual' (or some secular equivalent*) side to your personality?

What are the defining features of this 'spiritual' side to you?


*This raises the question, what is secular 'spirituality', if it exists?

No, like others here, I simply don't believe in the non-corporeal thing that other people call "soul" or "spirit" - although the word is used in some ways I recognise, such as being in "high spirits", or leading a "spirited defence". In that context you're just talking about passion or awe. When I listen to other people describe the feelings and emotions they get from having a deeply religious experience, the only things that are brought to mind are the awe you feel exhibiting some major feat of nature - lush forests, deep canyons, the night sky. I'm more than happy to trade in my soul for the night sky. And it is a need - I wouldn't want to contemplate life without that feeling.

Awe is very important.

E2A: I get the same need fulfilled by stuff like the Platonic Solids, strange attractors, great architecture (churches and mosques are built that way for a reason), crazy but regular tiling, whirlpools in the bath, black holes etc.

 

[Crispy]

Can I join your church, fudgefactor? Sounds pretty much like my creed.

 

[rhys gethin]

This is probably all an argument about language speaking us - we have the concept 'spiritual' in our language, so we look for things to equate with it.

I think I have - as a particular kind of animal - particular social needs, and since, unlike the females of the species, I'm an expendable defence-mechanism I probably have some sort of woolly need of things other than kids to 'die for' as required. Since I was brought up in Xianity I retain a notion, given intellectual coherence by Marx, that the liberation of the species from capitalism is the form - equivalent to 'salvation' - those needs should now take. There is no requirement for any notion of the 'spiritual' that I can see.

Clearly there are all sorts of things - electricity, gravity and so on - that are not 'material' in the Nineteenth Century sense, but are not 'spiritual' at all. The notion that 'ideas' are somehow 'spiritual' won't, I think, survive the practice of meditation - what I experience there, anyway, is a voice talking or a picture-show - which things are very much internal equivalents of radio or TV. I have a non-spiritual need, nowadays, for peace and quiet fully to experience these phenomena - part of what the Buddhists call the 'monkey-mind' - and see how idiotic most of what is going in my head on actually IS (and I've got all the bits of paper to show I'm as bright as the next person). If this drivel is the equivalent of the voices of gods in days past, may some unGod help us! But, no - I don't think I have spiritual needs.

 

[fudgefactorfive]

Can I join your church, fudgefactor? Sounds pretty much like my creed.

I did mention the concrete butt plugs and the Trial By Westlife initiation ceremony, right?

 

[bluestreak]

I did mention the concrete butt plugs and the Trial By Westlife initiation ceremony, right?

either one i can handle but if they're both together then fuck that shit.

 

[mentalchik]

nope !

 

[Brainaddict]

This is probably all an argument about language speaking us - we have the concept 'spiritual' in our language, so we look for things to equate with it.

I think there's definitely some truth in that.

 

[maya]

Do you feel that your life is incomplete unless you pay attention to some 'spiritual' (or some secular equivalent*) side to your personality?

What are the defining features of this 'spiritual' side to you?


*This raises the question, what is secular 'spirituality', if it exists?

i think (or imagine that) it all boils down to...trying to adopt a less egoistic/self-centred worldview/life philosophy-
kind of like the same idea that attracts people to socialism or political activism in general-
solidarity...caring about what happens to other people than yourself, feeling connected to the world instead of cut off from it...

(what's more, the need to re-educate and change your thinking away from conditioned patterns and reactions/assumptions/unconscious values and beliefs- a kind of conscious shift, a more conscious living and a new awareness of your surroundings)

i don't talk for myself here, just an observation- unfortunately many of these new ageish, fluffy "spiritual packages" (or "paths", bah!) out there tend to close down the mind into a rigid and dogmatic thinking, all while claiming to have "the answers" and "the solution(s)"...
there's a lot of hypocrisy and "spiritual materialism" out there ("we know TEH TRUTH!!1! and they don't, so we're better than/more enlightened than them"...sic)

many people don't need this, and good for them, but many people do, or reach a kind of crossroads in their life when they feel the need to think about some of these kind of things/issues...personally i've just started to practise some kind of exercises and awareness stuff, but try to shun away from the standard fare hippy bollocks or the super-extreme vegan/politicks/eco-life folks...i do see the value of some of it, though...

eastern thought in general have that sort of much-needed "balance" we need more of in the rational-capitalist-exploitational-egoistical society today: just the thought of not over-using resources out of greed but to be careful about the ecological balance, the middle way, sense of community and empathy with the people around you, micro/macro cosmos: "everything is connected", you= the world = the self = the same thing, if you destroy the world which is the basis for your very existence you destroy yourself...oh i could go on and on...

universal consciousness...*wibble*

(disclaimer: a pinch of salt and bullshit-detection-goggles needed in your marvellous quest towards a different state of mind...eek)

 

[pinkmonkey]

eastern thought in general have that sort of much-needed "balance" we need more of in the rational-capitalist-exploitational-egoistical society today: just the thought of not over-using resources out of greed but to be careful about the ecological balance, the middle way, sense of community and empathy with the people around you, micro/macro cosmos: "everything is connected", you= the world = the self = the same thing, if you destroy the world which is the basis for your very existence you destroy yourself...oh i could go on and on...

Yep agree with all of that. It's such a headfuck world we've made for ourselves, it really doesn't surprise me that so many have spiritual needs. I think it's quite natural to desire a sense of purpose and responsibility. If you can find that within yourself then that can be very freeing.

IMO of course.....

 

[Brainaddict]

eastern thought in general have that sort of much-needed "balance" we need more of in the rational-capitalist-exploitational-egoistical society today: just the thought of not over-using resources out of greed but to be careful about the ecological balance, the middle way, sense of community and empathy with the people around you, micro/macro cosmos: "everything is connected", you= the world = the self = the same thing, if you destroy the world which is the basis for your very existence you destroy yourself...oh i could go on and on...

universal consciousness...*wibble*

(disclaimer: a pinch of salt and bullshit-detection-goggles needed in your marvellous quest towards a different state of mind...eek)

Yes indeed to that last bit. Thing is, I kind of agree with you that some Eastern schools of thought are good at things that are conspicuously missing from Western ways of looking at things. But I don't think I would ever say so in public (Urban doesn't count - I worked out ages ago that you're all AI programs built for pointless arguing) because there's been so much rubbish attached to that line of thought.

Mostly I think it has been romanticised far too much. You don't have to spend long in South and East Asian countries to work out that they're all as fucked up as us...

And besides, it's something you can find in Western philosophy too - you just have to look a bit harder. Christianity also has its mysticism, and various philosophical schools (such as phenomenology) have leanings in this direction. (ETA: this is one of those things that annoys me about certain hippie types you meet - going on about how there's so much in Eastern philosophy that you can't find in the West, then you question them and find they've never even investigated Western philosophy).

I guess what I'm trying to say is, Eastern philosophies might have some interesting things people can learn from, but very few people I've met have expressed it in a way that sounds credible.

 

[Brainaddict]

i think (or imagine that) it all boils down to...trying to adopt a less egoistic/self-centred worldview/life philosophy-
kind of like the same idea that attracts people to socialism or political activism in general-
solidarity...caring about what happens to other people than yourself, feeling connected to the world instead of cut off from it...

(what's more, the need to re-educate and change your thinking away from conditioned patterns and reactions/assumptions/unconscious values and beliefs- a kind of conscious shift, a more conscious living and a new awareness of your surroundings)

So one thing that I'm interested in is: do we have decent language (without lots of slashes ) that can describe this kind of stuff, and that hasn't been rendered meaningless by fucking new age self-help books etc?

If we don't I think it's a shame.

 

[maya]

well i agree with both of your posts above,
and my opinion on the last question raised (without over-using the sloppy typography ) would be-
no, i don't think we have...it all ends in clichés and "tried and tested", watered down lifestyle packages for middle class (cringe!)"seekers" anyway, there's no real validity to anything unless you recognise personal growth and happiness to be of value.
and yes, of course it is much easier to look to "other" cultures for answers instead of your own...
(thought i made out pretty clear how much i despise hippies and spiritual extremists in particular, and how much empty fluffy bollocks there is out there, however i don't think that fact devalues the 2% left which might be of value and use)

...BUT, thank fuck some people are actually TRYING to change their mindsets instead of happily embracing the sick hedonist-nihilist stance, just continuing to party on through the night without even giving it a thought...
i don't think we should look down on the people who do that, but i'd think that the sickness and disgust people feel throughout the world today- from external reasons, the state of the world and society right now- is a pretty universal feeling and for that people look for answers in different places and ideologies...

IMO it's capitalism and greed that is the problem, not "western (or eastern) culture" per se...
we're going to face some serious issues of overpopulation and ecological disasters pretty soon, and it interests me to see how the human psyche seeks to cope with it, political and religious extremities perhaps blossoming as a result.

and no, i don't think "spirituality" have the solutions or answers, and i see how easily it can descend into mere superstition and religion, but i do see that it can have a value and a meaning in itself as part of "the awakening" of individual consciousness re: our part in shaping reality (inner and outer)

phew, that'd be all

 

[fudgefactorfive]

So one thing that I'm interested in is: do we have decent language (without lots of slashes ) that can describe this kind of stuff, and that hasn't been rendered meaningless by fucking new age self-help books etc?

If we don't I think it's a shame.

I think we do ... I never think of my "need for awe" as "spirituality" unless asked to put it in those terms - you did ask us to look for secular equivalents in post #1 - but I think it's fair enough to compare them. The stuff I get from it - big satisfying emotions and a basis for some ethics to live my life by - is identical to spirituality's function IMO.

I think a big component of spirituality - definitely organised spirituality - is simply the need for community. Even a hermit like me wants the company of like-minded folk every now and then.

There is also the relief of ego-loss that In Bloom and maya mentioned, which I get from thinking about particles and entropy etc. but Buddhists get from meditation and monotheists get from their conception of a perfect God. It's that sense of being interconnected with everything else.

 

[Brainaddict]

we're going to face some serious issues of overpopulation and ecological disasters pretty soon, and it interests me to see how the human psyche seeks to cope with it, political and religious extremities perhaps blossoming as a result.

Yes, one of the reasons I think the questions in the OP are important is the rise of fumdamentalisms, which I think are only going to get worse as climate change etc gets worse. You can see exactly why people fall back on such ridiculous belief systems, and you've got to wonder what alternatives secular society can offer.
From this point of view I think the rabid atheists like Dawkins are just shooting themselves in the foot by not admitting to the 'benefits' that people derive from religion.

 

[thought]

Ummm

Depends on how you define spiritual.

I belive i need to have a faith, that the human race, is not the most powerful energy in the world.

I also know i need time to meditate, and to practice my tai chi. Calming of a raceing head, can be called spiritual if one wants to.

I dont however have to have a drink to calm down or relax... ever, that isnt my spiritual need.. but i know it is the need of many

 

[maya]

as an afterthought...

i think that what the world could need right now would be the emergence of a secular, but holistic and ecologically sustainable-progressive worldview/philosphy...
one that didn't fall into the trap of new age airy-fairy supernatural explanations, but still acknowledged the "spiritual"(sic) greatness of nature and the interconnectedness of all things.

getting back to a way of life which is in balance with nature naturally demands a radical paradigm-shift and change of ethics, first to go must be the ultra-mechanistic cartesian view where nature is regarded as inferior with humans on top of the foodchain to rule it- this, in tow with monothetistic religion have been used to justify centuries of exploitation both of the earth and of indigenous people who lived in connection to it.

we need to realize that the earth is not a dead "thing" which we can use as we see fit, we are totally dependent on it-
if we abuse it, our bodies and minds will suffer, our individuals and entire societies will be sick, just as the poison we spill onto the ground.
everything is one, everything lives and breathes in relation to what surrounds it- there is no "separateness", we need to wake up and see that we're all One, and that we're in fact destroying- not our neighbours, not some remote and "worthless" country or animal- but ourselves...and it's not too late yet, if we change our ways now.

just because the animals are mute and without language, doesn't mean they're deaf and dumb- just because the plants and the earth seems to be inanimate, doesn't mean they're dead or worthless...
all life is sacred- not in a religious way, but because we're all like what is around us, we're like that life...
born from it- the atoms and molecules wobbling into place, shifting and dissolving into what to us seems like solid forms, but for a physicist would seem like a dance in space- and when we die, we return to it...that great Life which is the Universe...

and don't you forget it...
*strips off clothes and runs into the forest to hug trees*

 

[maya]

lol, the above post was a sort of silly attempt at irony, but failing since i find myself unable to be funny...
anyway, my position is better described here:
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=5470014&postcount=17