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Do you believe ritual magick has a real effect?

Crispy said:
But we're a bunch of hard-nosed naturalists round these parts, so expect derision. I think it's all bonkers like any other supernatural belief system, myself.
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You would think that someone would be capable of defending it then :mad:
;)

Naturalism isn't just a claim about supernatural things, but universals, moral values, the artifical unnatural and non-natural as well.

Can, you explain how consciousness, something I think cannot be entirely studied by scientific methods, can be explained away as an exception to that rule - that everything can be studied by the scientific method? iyswim
 
We'll have to disagree there. I believe that consciousness will eventually be entirely studied by science. We might not grasp a fully holistic view of it, but we will be able to explain its every mechanism. Much like (as I have said before) the weather. The science of fluid dynamics is well understood, but predicting the weather is too big a job, requiring measurement of every single atom in the atmosphere. Ditto the brain. We will figure it out, but not intuitively understand it, the way you would intuitively understand two meshing cogwheels.
 
Right, so we won't be able to "see" how the mind works, and we won't be able to know if we are able to create consciousness, and we won't be able to predict it (not sure what this has got to do with it, really). Doesn't sound much like an explanation, to me anyway.

Operationalism kills critical thought! Thats what this "prediction" fetish seems to me to be. You seem to be abstracting from real events, and wouldn't an abstraction from consciousness, quite possibly leave out events which would be essential to an explanation.
 
Yes.

primarily in a psychological sense, on a personal level.

The whole thing afaik relies on the metaphysical concepts of qabalah ('the tree of life') whereby conciousness can be reduced to a diagram, all ideas can be expressed in numbers, and most of the polytheistic dieties fit universal archetypes (they are all basically the same set of objective dieties with a subjective flavour, therefore most of the older religions can be viewed as one religion differing only in cultural symbolism)

As for 'real life' does-it-work, then yes as i believe in synchronicity.

This type of belief system is actually much commoner than you might think. I know a few people who do japanese 'chanting' buddhism (SGI_UK) - they firmly believe that they can cause things to 'magically' happen, although its required that they take physical action IRL as well.
 
I'd kind of like to think that voodoo worked; the ceremonies there are esoteric and somewhat appealing.

That's probably the tarbrush in me talking.
 
Majick: for the credulous, just like any other religion.

for the rest: a way of seeing people naked without buying porn.

Every social grouping is about getting laid.
 
Good points. But consider the deviousiosity of the religious/sexual mind. The Quaker, out at night in seedy bars cruising for a shag, meets the Amish lady who is, frankly, gagging for it.

'Hey, baby, I'm a Quaker' he says, sexily, 'do you want it but no fighting?'

'ooooh, take me, covered in porridge but for Christ's sake no techniques developed after 1712A.D. or thereabouts, big boy'

They are both after the thrill of the different, a walk (if you will) on the Wild Side, and they do it standing up in the alley outside by the bins.

And that's why people join religions.
 
Johnny Canuck2 said:
It has an effect on me. It causes me to think that the participants are crazy, if they're serious.
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Thinking about it, it's not really any loonier than your evangelicals who believe in prayer having a material effect on the world, speaking in tongues and being slain in the Spirit.

Which is still pretty looney, but it helps to put things in perspective ;)
 
Well, from what little I know, the rituals all seem to be concerend with altering the physical world by first altering your own mind. ie. if you want to achieve peace with an enemy, you first go through the mental workout that puts yourself at peace with him. Then you go out into the physical world and do the rest. CBT is similar in that it teaches methods (which can become almost rituals in themselves) to control your own mind and thence your behaviour.
 
I'm sceptical about conjuring demons up , since I learnt that Crowley took hallucinagones to aid him.....hmmm.

Otherwise if you can cloudbust, why can't a collective will do things?
 
In Bloom said:
Thinking about it, it's not really any loonier than your evangelicals who believe in prayer having a material effect on the world, speaking in tongues and being slain in the Spirit.

Which is still pretty looney, but it helps to put things in perspective ;)
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Where did I say that evangelicals aren't looney?
 
Anyyone ever tried to work with the I Tjing?
It need to be done ritually because otherwise you don't get anything out of it, but it is no magic. Just the surfacing of the problem which becomes clearly exposed together with suggestions towards a solution, which are already present in your subconcious. It is not such an easy "medium" to work with because you need to get an insight in its rather complex use of symbolism.

But if you want demonstrations of directly visible "real magic": I can make a glass turn under my hand without touching it. I find objects back with use of any sort of pendula. (which I do often since I forget where I put anything as soon as it gets out of sight). I can "read" cards (not the Tarot, I use others).

All that is no magic at all. It isn't even self-deception, only the surfacing of your subconcious.

salaam.
 
not that I'm an authority but...

the K in magick is the greek symbol ketis (also the word for the yoni)

This wan't to differentiate Thelema from magic performed by illusionists, it was to indicate that magick was concerned with sexual alchemy

Moonchild explains a lot, or if you don't want to read, aspiring magicians should just put their heart and soul into yoga and *ahem* 'worshiping at the gates of the temple' :p ;)

Sadly you cannot make a magic wand from a wet noodle, any more than you can make a silk purse from a sow's ear, and the excesses of alcohol that most Thelemites I've ever met seemed to have a rather worrying effect on them, as reported by their poor girlfriends. "Do what thou wilt" seeming a most appropiate term.
 
Do you believe in magic?
In a young girl's heart
How the music can free her
Whenever it starts

And it's magic
If the music is groovy
It makes you feel happy like an old time movie

I'll tell ya about the magic
It'll free your soul
But it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock 'n' roll

If you believe in magic, don't bother to choose
If it's jug band music or rhythm and blues
Just go and listen
It'll start with a smile
It won't wipe off your face no matter how hard you try
Your feet start tapping
And you can't seem to find
How you got there
So just blow your mind

Do you believe in magic?
Come along with me
We'll dance until morning, just you and me
And maybe, if the music is right
I'll meet ya tomorrow
So late at night

We'll go a dancin' baby then you'll see
All the magic's in the music and the music's in me, yeah

Do you believe in magic? Yeah.
Believe in the magic in a young girl's soul
Believe in the magic of rock 'n' roll
Believe in the magic that can set you free
Oh, talkin' 'bout magic

Do you believe like I believe?
Do you believe in magic?
 
Louloubelle said:
not that I'm an authority but...

the K in magick is the greek symbol ketis (also the word for the yoni)

This wan't to differentiate Thelema from magic performed by illusionists, it was to indicate that magick was concerned with sexual alchemy

Moonchild explains a lot, or if you don't want to read, aspiring magicians should just put their heart and soul into yoga and *ahem* 'worshiping at the gates of the temple' :p ;)

Sadly you cannot make a magic wand from a wet noodle, any more than you can make a silk purse from a sow's ear, and the excesses of alcohol that most Thelemites I've ever met seemed to have a rather worrying effect on them, as reported by their poor girlfriends. "Do what thou wilt" seeming a most appropiate term.
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I wonder why a mental image of Gerald Suster sprang to mind when I read that? :confused: ;)
 
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