kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
Trés good point.
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Trés good point.
anyobe see bbc news last night(i think), they went to Barking and interviewed white working class voters in a w/mans club. These were no racists, thugs, etc, they had voted labour all thier lives and tbh seemed very balanced individuals, yet they all openly said they were going to vote BNP. They gave various reasons, NL corruption, mass immigration, public services/privatisation, interestingly none of them mentioned the iraq war! Most said it was a protest vote, and it remains to be seen whether they actually do vote for them.
However, I do think the communalist approach of Respect is going to be disasterous in the long term, with a racialisng of the anti-nl, but progressive vote.i m not sure if a left wing party for all people would get many votes, but it would send out a message to those above, that we were there for them.
However, I do think the communalist approach of Respect is going to be disasterous in the long term, with a racialisng of the anti-nl, but progressive vote.i m not sure if a left wing party for all people would get many votes, but it would send out a message to those above, that we were there for them.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
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treelover said:
I have seen all this before in the late 70's. People pissed off with the then Callaghan government, record number of far-right candidates standing, NF beating liberals into third place, commentators and pundits suggesting at the time that the NF were heading for a electoral breakthrough etc, etc. It didn't happen. The NF vote collapsed and as a consequence split into at least three factions from which was spawned the present BNP.
If the BNP do increase the number of councillors it has this time (and there is no guarantee of that) it will be by default on a low turnout, as a protest vote against New Labour.
The problem with a protest vote though is that it can sometimes be a chimera - a wild illusion. We will see?
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treelover said:
Typical? Since when?
I left that supposed "fact" out because I believe it to be a myth.
Thatchers "swamping" speech had less an affect (it wasn't true btw) than the effective anti-fascist work happening at the time.
Also, the protest vote against the then labour government returned to the mainstream parties. An example of that protest vote was a radical feminist telling me in the 80's that even she had voted NF at the time.
No its the 19th c left rewriting history, partly to justify the failed tactics they are using at present such as Respect, Unite Against Facism, Love Music Hate Racism, (for gods sake how many fronts do the SWP have?). What i do know is these sort of 'asylum seekers welcome here' lollipops placards, communalist party
polititics and tactics are clearly not working, no rock agains racism will work this time! Instead, address the concerns: housing, welfare, poverty, new deal/Mc Jobs, mass migration, etc, comrades and then we will see a decline in the bnp and the fash.
polititics and tactics are clearly not working, no rock agains racism will work this time! Instead, address the concerns: housing, welfare, poverty, new deal/Mc Jobs, mass migration, etc, comrades and then we will see a decline in the bnp and the fash.
KeyboardJockey
Clowns to the Left of me
treelover said:
Well said. I'd go so far as to say that a lot of these swappie front org tactics especially the communalist Respect mob and the lollipops are giving encouragement to the BNP. It allows the bnp to canvass on the grounds of 'those lefties don't care about you they only care about the foriegners.'
MC5 said:
anything sourced from searchlight is flawed. the bnp have not followed tactics of physical confrontation with the left since 1994- when they withdrew from the streets. the quote "no marches, meetings or punch ups" was used by them- and by and large, this has happenned
it beggars belief that today, on the day where it is likely that the bnp makes it national breakthrough, people are still thinking the battle against them could possibly be for control of the streets
cue the swp to reform the squads.......
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JimPage said:
Anything? I am aware of your other points thanks.
No one has argued that. Anyway, that would be pointless for the reasons you give. They need to be taken on politically in the council chambers (when they turn up and if ever they speak that is).
We will see as to whether your prediction of a 'national breakthrough' is correct, or not in the early hours of tomorrow morning.
KeyboardJockey
Clowns to the Left of me
MC5 said:
MC5 I've seen the damage that the swappie fronts have done in my area. It's not hyperbole it is fact. Parachuting into areas under stress and demographic change and screaming 'asylum seekers welcome here' is not going to achieve any thing except drive desperate people into the arms of the BNP.
As for the communalism stuff that is a fact as well and has legitimised the idea of garnering votes on the grounds of race and religion. A tactic which has undoubtably contributed to peace in Northern Ireland
The only winners out of such a tactic are scum like the BNP.Respect is about as socialist as a bad case of athletes foot.
rebel warrior
Soca Warrior
treelover said:
FFS Treelover - that BBC report was a fucking disgrace - if you couldn't see though it there is no hope for you I'm afraid. The BBC reporter went into the W/men's club and managed to locate three people who said they were voting BNP and asked them 'some people say the BNP are a racist party, does that bother you?'
The three people interviewed then said they were not racist, but were 'against asylum seekers' and that was why they were voting BNP. Gee fucking wow - 3 people in one club have fallen for the daily propaganda from the corporate media about immigration and so are happy to vote for a Party the BBC described to them as 'racist'.
The problem is not that the BNP are a 'racist' party - the Tories and Labour are also 'racist' parties given their policies on the issue. The problem with the BNP is that they are a fascist party who tell lies to win votes. If the BBC had asked the people 'what about the BNP leadership's admiration for Adolf Hitler?' I suspect things might have looked different.
Yet the real problem with the BBC report is that it didn't bother showing any interviews with anyone in the club who opposed or disagreed with the BNP. That made the report fucking one-sided and quite disgraceful.
Hopefully, if Respect breakthrough in East London tonight people in places like Barking and Dagenham will become more aware of the existence of a decent alternative they can vote for in the future.
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treelover said:
Respect, UAF and LMHR are not SWP fronts even if you say they are. SWP activists are involved in these groups yes, but others involved are aligned to other parties and groups, or are unaligned like me.
Respect, as I understand it, is not based on 'communalism' and wishes to address the concerns of that 'wide swathe' of British society called the working class, by winning seats in local and national government. Only then can it address basic issues like housing, poverty etc and no you haven't won the argument - you've just distorted it with your sectarian rant.
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KeyboardJockey said:
The only party I see at present driving people into the arms of the BNP is the Labour Party.
As for the communalism stuff that is a fact as well and has legitimised the idea of garnering votes on the grounds of race and religion. A tactic which has undoubtably contributed to peace in Northern Ireland
Respect is about as socialist as a bad case of athletes foot.
You have it completely wrong about Respect and the communalism tag. As far as I can see they are appealing to all voters regardless of race and whatever faith they follow. It's true that Respect have garnered support from politically aware Muslims in some areas, but they have support from those who are not Muslims, or who have no faith. Similarly, they have won support from people of different ethnic backgrounds, including Asians, Afro-Carribeans and white people.
Harold Hill
Jay Emm forgot his p/word
MC5 said:
If you believe that then you jmust think voters really are stupid.
Harold Hill
Jay Emm forgot his p/word
A lot of BNP voters don't see them as fascist.
What then?
What then?
munkeeunit
sumptuous lushness
Harold Hill said:
The curious thing about British Fascists is that they have to pretend not to be fascists to garner support, as fascism is so deeply discredited that to do otherwise would lead to their immediate collapse (hopefully anyway).
This is reassuring.
At the same time, and to demonstrate the highly volatile and contradictory state of our European society at present, a leader of Italy, Berlusconi can openly declare himself a fascist and not find himself widely condemned and isolated by other European leaders.
That is deeply disturbing.
munkeeunit said:
Oh I don't know. I could start up a fascist party tomorrow that just has one item on the manefesto
"Gas all liberals no matter the race colour of creed"
To top it all off, I could have a party bus, with 2 big butch black queer fellas dancing at the front, with a blond lezza and still win by a landslide.
munkeeunit
sumptuous lushness
TonkaToy said:Oh I don't know. I could start up a fascist party tomorrow that just has one item on the manefesto
"Gas all liberals no matter the race colour of creed"
To top it all off, I could have a party bus, with 2 big butch black queer fellas dancing at the front, with a blond lezza and still win by a landslide.
Go for it, I've been thinking that the best way to split the BNP vote is to set up a string of far-right front groups, all of various degrees of poisonous hatred, so that all tastes are accounted for.
It worked as a general strategy for smashing the left into a hundred little fragments, often through MI5 front groups. It's time the right had a taste of it. Anyone up for it?
I want to be Goebells, he was the clever one. Hitler was just a ranting little twat dragged out of the gutter to stick in front of the brains behind it all.
So you can be Hitler
munkeeunit said:Go for it, I've been thinking that the best way to split the BNP vote is to set up a string of far-right front groups, all of various degrees of poisonous hatred, so that all tastes are accounted for.
It worked as a general strategy for smashing the left into a hundred little fragments, often through MI5 front groups. It's time the right had a taste of it. Anyone up for it?
I want to be Goebells, he was the clever one. Hitler was just a ranting little twat dragged out of the gutter to stick in front of the brains behind it all.
So you can be Hitler
Mate................As a die hard right winger.............that's exactly what the fuck has been going on to us over the last 8 years anyway.....the centre of the roadies must be pissing themsleves.
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