Do Swappies buy their own paper and how many issues each?

[Nigel Irritable]

Nice, young, washable brains; mmmmm

We prefer to think of it in terms of young people being amongst the most willing to question capitalist society and look for an alternative...

Yep, but the internet (and particularly indymedia.ie) has meant that the criticisms of their sectarianism and opportunism are read by thousands, rather than just being confined to lefties in pubs as it was a few years back.

This makes a certain amount of sense to me, but I remain skeptical about just how big a factor the internet really is in this. I mean I've encountered the whole "you're not the SWP are you?" thing from time to time but mostly from people who have come into direct contact with them at some stage.

GR, AEIP, ANL, ISF (okay I admit most of them are hardly enormous, but in their day most had serious potential).

As someone who has been a member of GR, AEIP and ANL and attended a couple of planning meetings for the ISF, I can only agree that these were "hardly enormous". The first three never had any life of their own. Jesus, just thinking about it now, the number of SWP fronts I've been a member of is frightening. I can only feel sorry for people who join one without knowing what they are getting into.

On the "breakthrough is here" thing, it used to really aggravate me when the SWP would try to portray everyone else on the left as "pessimists" who didn't understand the exciting possibilities of "the new movement". These days it just makes me laugh.

 

[cockneyrebel]

If you give a shit about what I think of you, you'd be much better occupied copping yourself on than whining.

Funnily enough, I don’t give a shit

And your way of debating has been extended to far more people than the three you listed. But never mind, keep on keeping on.

 

[gurrier]

Funnily enough, I don’t give a shit

So stop f***ing moaning then. Muppet.

 

[cockneyrebel]

I wasn't moaning, I was just commenting that you have a go at bolshiebhoy for doing what he did, when your own style of debating is no better.

Anyway, no point carrying this on, but why are you putting stars in f***ing, you've not been carrying around too many SWP placards have you

To be honest though whatever bolshie thinks of Soli as a marxist, can he really say that what people like levien, rebel warrior and Udo put forward aren't an embarassment to him as a grounded marxist and supporter of the SWP? (and bolshie is by far the most grounded marxist on here who supports the SWP) No consistency these days I tell you.

 

[Solidarnosc]

No CR, I am a semi-marxist liberal, cos BB says so.

This means I'm going to have to leave WP now.

Sorry everyone.

Where will I go?

 

[cockneyrebel]

The Socialist Party

 

[flypanam]

On a related subject, I see on indymedia.ie that Eamon McCann is standing for the SEA/SWP in Derry in the local elections. But instead of standing in one of the Cityside wards, where he would presumably easily win a seat, he's standing in a rural ward. What the hell is with that? Is it that they think he can win their anyway or do they really not want him to actually win?

No he aint standing in the locals but he is standing in the general election in the foyle constitunecy. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/vote2005/html/258.stm

as for the papers, the amount sold is determined by the cash received.

 

[Solidarnosc]

The Socialist Party

Oh thanks CR. You think I'm a liberal as well?

 

[Nigel Irritable]

No he aint standing in the locals but he is standing in the general election in the foyle constitunecy. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/vote2005/html/258.stm

Nope. He is standing in both the Foyle Westminster constituency and the Waterside Rural local election ward.

Waterside Rural ward is majority Catholic but it is still hardly the most obvious seat for him to stand in. Any of the urban wards with a Catholic majority would on the face of it be much better territory for him. Maybe they figure he isn't in with a chance of winning anyway so it doesn't really matter. Maybe they think his chances are so good that he will get in either way. Maybe the SEA or McCann himself don't actually want to win him a seat on the Council and the huge burden of work that would entail. I'm not on the ground and I don't pretend to know. I am a bit confused by it though.

 

[gurrier]

No he aint standing in the locals but he is standing in the general election in the foyle constitunecy. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/vote2005/html/258.stm

as for the papers, the amount sold is determined by the cash received.

He is standing according to the SEA site

Aren't you a member of the Irish SWP? I suppose that, if you weren't aware that he was standing in the locals, you can hardly explain the thinking behind the curious choice of ward, but any comments on any of the other stuff about your lot here?

 

[flypanam]

He is standing according to the SEA site

Aren't you a member of the Irish SWP? I suppose that, if you weren't aware that he was standing in the locals, you can hardly explain the thinking behind the curious choice of ward, but any comments on any of the other stuff about your lot here?

at the moment i'm not a member of the swp in ireland, i will be again soon though. as for the stuff about the irish swp nigel knows some of what i think, but he also knows that i don't think the prognosis is in the long term terminal decline and death.
rather i expect a full recovery and lobvely bright rosy red cheeks!

 

[flypanam]

No, he was in the party until at least a year ago. He may have dropped out since though and I certainly got the impression that he was on his way towards the door.

Not true
http://www.swp.ie/socialistworker/2005/sw238/socialistworker-238-11.htm

 

[Nigel Irritable]

From that other thread:

Okay, no organisation can be on top of its game all the time. And to tell the truth i think the it might be no bad idea that the swp is taking time to have a look at what its doing. It might be the right time to do it if their is ever a right time to. after all the swp is entering a period of self reflection of a sort surely many on the irish left would welcome that.

while its true that they are sort a fulltimer and the office ain't functioning at the mo, its not quite down to the blessed failures of the swp. plain and simple some of the members up there are moving on. One is heading to London with their job, another has lost her job and returning to her home and taking her partner with her!

From what rory told me the paper has finally broken even and that it has made a small but psychologically important profit, which will cheer some people up. Apprentely its the first time ever that the paper has had a prolonged period of not been a loss maker. it seemed to be selling well on the three DL sales i witnessed, when i was over.

Also the latest issue did catch my eye. there has been a number of articles about left regroupment, a lively debate actually taking place in the paper. a very good thing in my opinion. actually dermot connollys and colm b peoice was well done, and i thought rorys reply was well thought out and considered. while it would be great if they stayed and politically someone did put the arguement to them to do so, the course of being broke runs deep and if they want to fly you just got to let them go..

I really am curious about the McCann thing by the way, so if you are talking to any of your Irish companeros let us know.

 

[gurrier]

Not true
http://www.swp.ie/socialistworker/2005/sw238/socialistworker-238-11.htm

Eh, this doesn't show the untruth of my impression, although it might be evidence against it. (me and my wishful thinking

 

[bolshiebhoy]

To be honest though whatever bolshie thinks of Soli as a marxist, can he really say that what people like levien, rebel warrior and Udo put forward aren't an embarassment...No consistency these days I tell you.

Ah now come on, I even accused Rebel of being a closet liberal for his 'libertarian leninist' tagline

The level of venom on here directed at swpies (like the comrades you mention) who argue the toss in favour of their politics is only equalled by the fawning that attaches itself to any swpie who shows signs of 'being normal' or 'sensible', i.e. prepared to concede an inch to those on urban and elsewhere who inhabit the left ghetto. Let's just say I was trying to redress that balance in favour of those who stick to their guns and against the political butterflies who get so warmly congratulated by people and groups who have nothing in common except their hatred of the swp.

Leaving the swp for wp isn't a sign of 'open mindedness'. The only interesting thing about joining wp is that objectively it's a route back into the Labour party, albeit one dressed up in ultra sounding formulas.

 

[Solidarnosc]

No sign of an apology for your slanders then BB.

I fail to see how listening to someone's argument is conceding to them. It's not like I was listening to BNP members FFS... sometimes, well quite a few times I loose arguments, but then I find relevant texts and books and read up on them. Just because I'm not on your "higher level" BB doesn't make me less committed. Leaving the SWP in the first place was the hardest decision I ever had to make, no word of a lie. I'm no political butterfly and just because some anarchists have stuck up for me somewhat doesn't mean I agree with them politically or that they agree with me politically.

I always defend my politics as best I can. How can I do any more?

I don't hate the SWP. I don't regret the time I spent in it. However it is currently choosing a path which I cannot bring myself to agree with any more. For me it was the right thing to do.

 

[Pilgrim]

No sign of an apology for your slanders then BB.

I'm no political butterfly and just because some anarchists have stuck up for me somewhat doesn't mean I agree with them politically or that they agree with me politically.

If BB had any self respect, Soli, he wouldn't have posted those things in the first place, let alone refused to apologise for them.

I'm an unaligned anarcho now, and an ex Swappie as well. I didn't find leaving the party easy either, which is why I slowly disengaged myself from SWP activities rather than going out in a blaze of glory. I'm not a fan of the Trots generally and I make no secret of it, but I do at least respect Soli's right to change allegiances if he so chooses.

What I have no respect for, BB, is the Swappie habit of treating party members like shit and slating tham as traitors when they move on to something that they regard to be better. The problem for the SWP isn't one of gaining recruits, but of keeping them from departing in disgust after a few weeks or months. If the SWP retained half the people it recruited than they might be a credible force. As it is, they are no more than a brake on the aspirations og people who wish they would drop their supposed revolutionary nature and leave the revolutionary pitch to those who actually mean it.

And another thing: Instead of slating people for leaving your beloved party, why not sit down for a minute and ask yourself WHY so many people leave. There will always be some who don't stay, but when you start losing members as dedicated as Soli was (and he put up with a lot of flak from the anti-SWP majority on these boards with little complaint) you are on shit street and no mistake. So ask yourself why the SWP is so hated and despised.

Furthermore, given that the SWP, supposedly a 'revolutionary socialist' organisation, its sudden commitment to electoral politics could just as easily be seen as selling out as becoming a member of WP. Personally, I reckon Soli would be a useful addition to the Anarchist ranks, but as he has chosen not to be, fair enough.

Just apologise and back down, BB, before you make yourself look like even more of an offensive idiot than you already have.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

No sign of an apology for your slanders then BB.

Not a chance me old mucker. Come now, you're not a candidate member anymore, you should be prepared for hearing some hurtful remarks. What do you expect a marxist to do when you join a ridiculous sect, pat you on the back and say 'fair dues pal, as long as you think you're doing the right thing'? Fraid not. Marxism is in one respect quite akin to Catholicism, both ideologies hate moral relativism and demand side taking. You've chosen yours.

In case that sounds too melodramatic bear in mind that while your erstwhile comrades are busting a gut to maximise the Respect vote (despite the best efforts of the Blairites to crush the party at birth) you and your new chums will be...abstaining.Oh yeah except in certain constituencies with 'good left candidates' oh and north of the border blah blah blah.

I fail to see how listening to someone's argument is conceding to them.

Eh? But you have that's the point.

..sometimes, well quite a few times I loose arguments, but then I find relevant texts and books and read up on them. Just because I'm not on your "higher level" BB doesn't make me less committed.

Christ it's got zip to do with 'being on a higher level'. In actual fact WP likes to believe that it is on a 'higher level' than the average swpie, that cliffite marxism is crass etc, your disdain for swp 'populism' and so on. Hence the way your election leaflet reads like a rehash of the transitional prog. For christ sakes it even witters on about workers defence squads etc. And yet these nice sounding phrases often hide a lack of a decent grounding in general marxism. I've met swp members from the glassworks in Waterford in Ireland who devoured books after a shitty day at work and were better read in marxism than most of the wp 'cadre' I've ever come into contact with. Most of the sects have people who have a very shallow grasp of the marxist method but do a good line in adopting left 'positions' on all manner of issues.

The only time I remember (if I've got this memory wrong I do actually apologise in advance) you talking about swp theory on here was to say how you'd never read and never really wanted to read Harman's extended article on Islam, The Prophet and the Proletariat. Now I would guess that one of the issues WP would be drumming into you now for all they are worth is how the SWP isn't sufficiently strong in it's secularism etc. But how can you know if you've never read the most worked out cliffite argument on the subject?

I don't hate the SWP. I don't regret the time I spent in it. However it is currently choosing a path which I cannot bring myself to agree with any more. For me it was the right thing to do.

I'll tell you what that's not, it's not exactly a ringing endorsement of WP is it, how you've embraced the path of orthodox trotskyism and the need to build the fifth international and the rest? Are you gonna be as soggy in your defence of your new political allies as you were of your old?

The jury is out I'm sure but one of the more noticeable things is how many ex-swpies use a temporary membership of one of the sects as a staging post on the way into more mainstream politics. All the easier in WP's case given it's ambivalent attitude to membership of the Labour party.

 

[Pilgrim]

The jury is out I'm sure but one of the more noticeable things is how many ex-swpies use a temporary membership of one of the sects as a staging post on the way into more mainstream politics.QUOTE]

And dumping your supposed 'revolutionary' principles in favour populist electioneering, as your beloved SWP has done via RESPECT, isn't a move towards the mainstream?

Credit us with some intelligence, BB, and answer the points made in my previous post.

 

[cockneyrebel]

Fucking hell BB, why does this piss you off so much. A little while ago you were saying who should care if soli left the SWP or not. But as said, you lay into Soli about being a liberal and bang on about the lack of cadreisation in WP but look at the SWP for fucks sake! And you might criticise Rebel but as said I can’t believe you’re not embarrassed by some of the crap that people like rebel, levien and udo come out with. I actually agree that SWP members sometimes get laid into for the wrong reasons on U75 and I don’t think anyone would claim that in many ways the UK politics bit of U75 represents anything other than a swampish left ghetto. But you’re certainly not “redressing the balance” coming out with this stuff.

The level of Marxist cadreisation in the SWP is clearly the worst I’ve ever come across. The open door policy and total lack of political education makes that so (I was asked to sign people up when I didn't even speak the same language as them!). So as said, why aren’t you laying into the SWP for that?

And as with pilgrim I hate the way that the hackish SWP members are fine with people who just leave the SWP and drop out of politics but have such venom towards people who leave and join another group. And it doesn’t have to be like it. My SWP branch organiser was totally uncompromising politically with me when we met after I joined WP but he was still friendly and didn’t resort to the petty crap that you have on here and so many SWP organisers do. In the SWPs case, you’re right, it is like Catholicism, the zealot like behaviour and cultish internal culture. And you have the cheek to call other groups “sects”….

And has it ever occurred to you that people might leave the SWP because they think the SWPs line is wrong? Look at RESPECT. You can give me all this crap about tactics etc but I can’t believe that it doesn’t concern you that “overt socialism” along with basic socialist principles have been voted down by the SWP. That RESPECT candidates compare abortion to the holocaust, welcome employees and appeal to votes on religious lines. That the leader asks for votes because of his anti-abortion and religious credentials and talks about immigration quotas. But I have the feeling that whatever the SWP did, you would stand by them.

And it's not like soli is the only one. Loads of people are leaving the SWP over RESPECT and membership figures are massively down on a few years ago.

PS Bolshie the SWP can't have thought soli was that bad as they made him a branch organiser and asked him to set up Spark in Manchester. So by your own logic the SWP must think it's ok to put semi-Marxist liberals in positions of responsibility.....

 

[boxinghefner]

Socialist Worker sellers are usually depicted as not amazingly well educated in the nuances of paper selling (or revolutionary theory). A product perhaps of the 'buy the paper - join the party - no discussion needed' approach. I think they had an ineffectual Socialist Worker seller on Corry once, and Mark Thomas has a SWP related comedy skit in his routine now.

I'm not sure quite how true that is. Well, to some extent it is. Though People do usually seem to ignore the fact that there are members that have been in there for ages (god only knows how, but they have). And lots of them make up the branch members. When I was a member we didn't do too badly - though sales were never anything near what they could have been.

 

[durruti02]

hey what a great thread!!! .. the leftists really are fked arn't they!!