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Do Original Philosophical Texts Matter?

A commentary on a very small but very significant part of Gordon Baker & Peter Hacker's secondary text on Wittgenstein's Philosophical Investigations, Wittgenstein: Understanding and Meaning.

B&H said:
For a large class of cases, Wittgenstein averred, the meaning of a word is its use in language.

For an incredibly wordy interpretation, we have to wonder why H&B clip what exactly Wittgenstein so succinctly says.

Wittgenstein said:
For a large class of cases – though not for all – in which we employ the word “meaning” it can be defined thus: the meaning of a word is its use in the language. (emphasis in the original)

Notice how the original is about the word “meaning” whereas the interpretation is about the “meaning of a word” - as if a word can only have one meaning.

The point of B&H's discussion is about the qualification, 'though not all'.

B&H said:
This is not a theory or a hypothesis, but a grammatical remark.

Does the text say this? No. Wittgenstein is usually so careful to point out when he is making a grammatical remark, but here it is absent. (H&B are right about it not being a theory or a hypothesis – but for the wrong reasons, it’s not a general statement about the word ‘meaning’, it is merely a statement about some uses of the word ‘meaning’ and its this painfully clear conclusion that H&B are doing their utmost to undermine.)

B&H said:
Presumably he was thinking of contexts in which ‘meaning (of a word)’ and ‘use (of a word)’.

‘Presumably’ being the key word.

B&H said:
This is exemplified by some of his own idiosyncratic uses. He speaks of ‘meaning-blindness’, but not of ‘use-blindness’.

If Wittgenstein had said, ‘For all cases in which we employ the word “meaning” it can be defined thus: the meaning of a word is its use in the language,’ then there would still be a distinction between 'meaning' and 'use'. Imagine if I said, ‘every rose is red’ then I would still be able to make a grammatical distinction between ‘rose’ and ‘red’ – I would not conclude, for example that ‘every red is a rose’. This is because I did not say, ‘every rose is identical with red’. Notice also the feebleness of the example - does Wittgenstein ever talk about the invalidity of saying 'use-blindness'?

Perhaps Wittgenstein had really meant to say, ‘For a large class of cases – though not all – in which we employ the word “meaning” it can be defined thus: the meaning of a word is identical to its use in the language.’ Then the qualification makes the grammatical distinction between ‘meaning-blindness’ and ‘use-blindness’ in only certain circumstances. Of course Wittgenstein hadn’t meant to say something so silly.

ETA: It should be clear that this is not a grammatical remark in the sense that B&H mean in any case. There is only mention of the use of the word 'meaning', there is no mention of the use of the phrase 'use in the language' - it is simply used. There is no suggestion that the grammar of the word 'meaning' is being compared to the grammar of the phrase 'use in the language'.

Now why are B&H so keen to misinterpret Wittgenstein? I can only guess. Why is this passage so important to me? It is because the passages leading up to this look as if Wittgenstein has nailed a use theory of meaning. The very fact that Wittgenstein refused this theory is extremely significant at least to understand his method of resisting theoretical generalisations. Wittgenstein, among other things, is showing us how not to fall into bad habits. It is highly significant and hopelessly obscure that B&H consider theoretical generalisations to be not theoretical when they involve remarks about grammar. They clearly wanted an all embracing theoretical statement about semantics, and they clearly didn't get it. All they cared about was the idea that was supposedly expressed - and to hell with the finer points.

ETA: I would also like to note that B&H, in their twisting and turning, encourage a bad habit in the form: I define A thus: A is of character B, this means that by virtue of the fact that this is a definition that A is the same as the collection of all things with character B. That is to say it is a necessary and sufficient definition. This is a bad habit that is quite explicitly rejected elsewhere in the text.

I should point out that Hacker and Baker were (in the case of Baker)/ are (in the case of Hacker) great authorities on Wittgenstein's work. Yet it is clear they didn't even want to understand it properly. Hence these ridiculous arguments involving childish logical errors in order to pervert the text into something they wanted it to be. I should note that towards the end of his life Baker retracted this interpretation.

Please don't accept garbage like this as a substitute for the original. Its like accepting the Mona Lisa with a mustache and spectacles scribbled on it - you can argue that the original is still all there, but you just won't get it.
 
Why has nobody given any reasons for the value of Shakespear's original texts? There are loads of ideas in them that transcend Shakespear the man.

For the education of gorski, its worth pointing out how mushy English thinking is when it comes to the arts, even when English thinking is so clearly philistine in a "just look at the facts that are stated and forget the rest" about science, mathematics and philosophy. Its also worth pointing out the contempt science, mathematics and philosophy are held by the English - you don't get Germans bragging about innumeracy like you do in this country.
 
Juliet:
O Romeo, Romeo! - Whyfore art thou Romeo?
Deny thy father and refuse thy name.
Or, if thou wilt not, be but sworn my love,
And I'll no longer be a Capulet.
---

Is it Shakespear’s style which is the most important thing here, or is it the ideas that are expressed?

I’ve no appreciation for Shakespear. “Or, if thou wilt not, be but sworn my love,…” actually strikes me as being particularly inelegant, but I’m not going to expect anyone to agree with me.

But even if Shakespear is meeting some criteria of style which hasn’t been matched since, then surely that’s just an historical accident. One day, someone will eventually come up with a way of saying it better. Indeed now that we have computer technology, all we need is a database of the desired vernacular, a collection of criteria on what amounts to good form and perform a search through sentences which express the correct ideas. The computer will eventually come up with something superior.

I don’t agree with a word I’ve written here. What’s wrong with it?

Suppose we lost all the original Picassos, but there are nevertheless forgeries which only experts could tell are different from the original. Have we lost anything if we lose the original? What if the even the experts couldn’t tell the difference?

Look at the reasons I have given for the value of philosophical originals and see if you can find any value in artistic originals without these reasons.
 
Why has nobody given any reasons for the value of Shakespear's original texts? There are loads of ideas in them that transcend Shakespear the man.
Sure, Shakespeare expresses loads of ideas sublimely well; and quite a few of the things he poetically and succinctly expressed have become part of the English language. The point is that anyone could have described the same ideas; we value Shakespeare for the way he expresses them.
 
Sure, Shakespeare expresses loads of ideas sublimely well; and quite a few of the things he poetically and succinctly expressed have become part of the English language. The point is that anyone could have described the same ideas; we value Shakespeare for the way he expresses them.

I hope my last post answers this! :)
 
Every generation has to re-interpret everything for themselves, as it were... Occasionally even a famous fresco has to be repainted ["restored"]...

It doesn't mean all those chaps and lasses are not built into the very foundations... Take Aristotle out and the whole building falls apart...

For instance...

P.S. I know, K.:hmm: I'd go even further...:(
 
To be perfectly honest I think Francis Bacon's use of the English language is more sublime than Shakespear's. I really don't think Shakespear's very good. But that's not something I expect anyone to agree with. However I would still see value in Shakespear's original scripts.
 
Ages ago, when 118118 was still posting, I was going to start a thread about the possibility of computational philosophy. That is would it be possible to get a computer to come up with sound philosophical theses. I thought better of it, so I didn't. But really it wouldn't be hard to get a computer to come up with Ockham's Razor, say, as we apply it nowadays. We would have to recognise its worth ourselves, but even then surely there is something wrong here. Doesn't this sound outrageous?

ETA: Never forget that a clearly and accurately expressed philosophical thesis is merely a string of symbols. Strip it of its context and that's all you have.
 
Nothing of value can be said mathematically - about the "Human Condition", that is...

You know, I once might have been tempted to disagree.

If language didn't have its semantic content, then it would literally be mathematics. The theory of formal languages is a mathematical theory. If we pretend (and it is only a pretence) that language captures pure ahistorical thoughts - then we have reduced language to a way of stringing symbols together.

ETA: That's why mathematics and metaphysics go so well together.
 
Every generation has to re-interpret everything for themselves, as it were... Occasionally even a famous fresco has to be repainted ["restored"]...

That's a good point, that I've been missing. When we look at a work of art or philosophy we are also looking at the contrast between what it meant then and what it means now. If you lose that contrast, it becomes more wooden. That's why I find Shakespear so difficult. I can't appreciate how inventive he was as I don't have an appreciation of Shakespear's culture and language. Far from being stylistically great, he seems actually quite stylistically ugly. I know I'm wrong, but for me its how it is. This is why the original script (as in the words, not the manuscript) is so important - even if it was reproduced exactly somehow, the reproduction would be ersatz crap. There would be no way of seeing it in the right light.

I wouldn't see any value in art or in philosophy if I didn't have an appreciation of the creative mind that produced it. There's so much more to learn in life than facts about this or that, even if we add in aquiring a taste for this or that. Where does learning how to be a well rounded human being come in? If I read a work of philosophy, I want to see a creative mind at work dealing with problems that are deeply puzzling to this person. I don't want to see a bunch of ideas.
 
Indeed, you 2 really would be no loss to Humanity. Arrogant, ignorant, lazy and prejudiced to the bone [before any hard work to earn your prejudices/standpoints]. Very efficient.

I was right, btw, as acknowledged... but hey - let nothing stop you in your nasty and idiotic nature...
 
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