Do Civil Servants deserve working class solidarity?

[Groucho]

So the civil servants, the civil service, have never taken strike action in solidarity with other workers then?

Solidarity strikes are illegal in this country. You might as well ask when have nurses, fire fighters, teachers, dockers, miners etc taken solidarity action in support of other workers. The answer in most cases would be before it was made illegal in 1984. That would include Civil Servants who have taken action in support of nurses, have marched and collected in suport of miners, joined the lunchtime walk outs in support of ambulance workers etc etc. Most recently at my work place we voted to give money to Fujitsu strikers in Manchester.

When did you last take strike action in support of other workers?

 

[ViolentPanda]

You're nitpicking here. The civil servants administer the state. That's what they are employed to do. Now as you explained they gatekeep resources such as benefits, but as with the other roles they have, for example policing the taxation system, these are roles that bring them in to conflict with the working classes daily.

The point is that if your OP is in the context of the PCS industrial action then you're not talking about those civil servants that actually "adminster the state", the great majority of such people are members of the FDA and very rarely soil their hands dealing with the likes of the working classes.
As for your claim re "conflict with the working classes", the opposite argument can also be made on exactly the same grounds that you make yours. Those same civil servants who "police" tax also facilitate decisions in favour of members of the working class. IMHO you're conflating the structure and heirarchy of the various apparatuses of state and the degree of agency of those people employed to facilitate the end-functions of the apparatus.

Now that's quite a persuasive argument, except it ignores the reality for many people, that they find themselves in conflict with 'civil servants' regularly. Why, if I consider most civil servants I come into contact with to be lazy, feckless jobsworths who couldn't organise the proverbial piss up, should I then offer them solidarity. So I think my question still stands...

Having been a civil servant myself once upon a time, I believe your points only reinforce my previous conclusion that you're conflating structure and heirarchy and the agency of individuals.
IME one of the greatest problems that "frontline" civil servants have is the degree of constraint put upon them in exercising any degree at all of autonomy in terms of making decisions that can facilitate a successful (to both parties) conclusion to any "transaction". It used to be that a degree of flexibility was allowed to individuals within a dept, so, for instance, if you worked at the DHSS you could help a client to apply for a crisis loan, or you could get them a replacement giro in a matter of minutes, there was discretionary flexibility. In my own ambit I could "advise" inmates how to file complaints against the prison authorities. In both those cases (and in many more) there are little or no such discretionary powers left.
It's not the low-grade civil servants shitting on you (it's hard not to be a "jobsworth" to some sort of degree when it's so easy for management to discipline you for even minor infringements of your terms of employment), they can only function within the strictures of their rules of employment. It's the regressive and ignorant curtailment of the discretionary powers of the functionaries of state agencies.

 

[soulman]

Is your giro late?

 

[soulman]

Solidarity strikes are illegal in this country. You might as well ask when have nurses, fire fighters, teachers, dockers, miners etc taken solidarity action in support of other workers. The answer in most cases would be before it was made illegal in 1984. That would include Civil Servants who have taken action in support of nurses, have marched and collected in suport of miners, joined the lunchtime walk outs in support of ambulance workers etc etc. Most recently at my work place we voted to give money to Fujitsu strikers in Manchester.

When did you last take strike action in support of other workers?

Now this is more like it!

 

[soulman]

The point is that if your OP is in the context of the PCS industrial action then you're not talking about those civil servants that actually "adminster the state", the great majority of such people are members of the FDA and very rarely soil their hands dealing with the likes of the working classes.

It was at the back of my mind but not the reason for posing the question. Spion is closer than s/he realises

However your claim that lower ranking civil servants don't administer the state is simply not true. They are employed to do just that...

As for your claim re "conflict with the working classes", the opposite argument can also be made on exactly the same grounds that you make yours. Those same civil servants who "police" tax also facilitate decisions in favour of members of the working class. IMHO you're conflating the structure and heirarchy of the various apparatuses of state and the degree of agency of those people employed to facilitate the end-functions of the apparatus.

Again I think that's a persuasive argument, a good argument, however where it falls down is around expectation, experience and outcome. Most people, including yourself I bet, have low expectation, poor experience and negative outcomes from interactions with civil servants.

Having been a civil servant myself once upon a time, I believe your points only reinforce my previous conclusion that you're conflating structure and heirarchy and the agency of individuals.
IME one of the greatest problems that "frontline" civil servants have is the degree of constraint put upon them in exercising any degree at all of autonomy in terms of making decisions that can facilitate a successful (to both parties) conclusion to any "transaction". It used to be that a degree of flexibility was allowed to individuals within a dept, so, for instance, if you worked at the DHSS you could help a client to apply for a crisis loan, or you could get them a replacement giro in a matter of minutes, there was discretionary flexibility. In my own ambit I could "advise" inmates how to file complaints against the prison authorities. In both those cases (and in many more) there are little or no such discretionary powers left.
It's not the low-grade civil servants shitting on you (it's hard not to be a "jobsworth" to some sort of degree when it's so easy for management to discipline you for even minor infringements of your terms of employment), they can only function within the strictures of their rules of employment. It's the regressive and ignorant curtailment of the discretionary powers of the functionaries of state agencies.

Now if civil servants were taking action to challenge the constraints placed upon themselves and thus the working classes then I wouldn't be asking this question.

 

[Spion]

Spion is closer than s/he realises

Well, you did mention the fecklessness and laziness of civ servants dealing with you.

Which is no basis from which to draw political conclusions about an entire sector's workers.

I don't see why civil servants should be expected to spontaneously have a revolutionary consciousness - which is what you're asking/expecting of them.

 

[Groucho]

...Now if civil servants were taking action to challenge the constraints placed upon themselves and thus the working classes then I wouldn't be asking this question.

This has also been illegal since 1984. You are only permitted to legally strike over your terms and conditions of service.

However, the action is opposed to cuts and privatisations that are harming the delivery of services. For instance, millions of calls to the DWP go unanswered because of the cuts, benefits are delayed because of the cuts etc

 

[soulman]

Well, you did mention the fecklessness and laziness of civ servants dealing with you.

Which is no basis from which to draw political conclusions about an entire sector's workers.

I don't see why civil servants should be expected to spontaneously have a revolutionary consciousness - which is what you're asking/expecting of them.

No that's not what I'm asking/expecting at all. My subjective experiences led me to ask a simple question, that's all...

 

[soulman]

Now this is more like it!

Or is it?

Who voted to give money to other strikers? Was it a workplace vote or a show of hands by some lefty politicos?

 

[soulman]

This has also been illegal since 1984. You are only permitted to legally strike over your terms and conditions of service.<snip>

You can however decide when and where you will take action...

 

[Groucho]

'joined up' action

You can however decide when and where you will take action...

Well not really.... The anti-union laws are very restrictive.

This ongoing dispute will be putting increasing pressure for co-ordinated action with other unions, and in that sense PCS can decide to take action at the same time as other unions. In Manchester Fujitsu workers were out all this week, and NHS workers struck on 31st. The three unions - AMICUS, PCS and UNISON held a joint march and rally.

Roll on the general strike!

 

[soulman]

Well not really.... The anti-union laws are very restrictive.

This ongoing dispute will be putting increasing pressure for co-ordinated action with other unions, and in that sense PCS can decide to take action at the same time as other unions. In Manchester Fujitsu workers were out all this week, and NHS workers struck on 31st. The three unions - AMICUS, PCS and UNISON held a joint march and rally.

Roll on the general strike!

Jeez give them an inch and they'll take a mile...

 

[Spion]

No that's not what I'm asking/expecting at all. My subjective experiences led me to ask a simple question, that's all...

Our postie has delivered our mail to next door's a few times, and a number of bus drivers have failed to stop when they should have. I've put all postal and transport workers on my list and they're going to be up against the wall come the glorious day.

I don't think personal experiences of service from workers is a good basis from which to determine politics.

 

[Zeppo]

Civil Servants and the working class

In terms of solidarity, I would not expect the working class to support all civil servants. Remember that Senior Civil Servants (SCS) are not working class and come from an Oxbridge background and do the bidding of the Establishment and State.

However, the vast majority of civil servants are on poor pay and are working class. So I would expect the working class to support its own members.

Let us say that 200,000 civil servants (not SCS) were on strike over low pay, privatisation and job cuts against the Government e.g. on 31 January 2007. I would expect other trade unionists and the working class in general to support the strikers. If they win this dispute - the working class overall will gain more confidence.

 

[soulman]

<snip>
Let us say that 200,000 civil servants (not SCS) were on strike over low pay, privatisation and job cuts against the Government e.g. on 31 January 2007. I would expect other trade unionists and the working class in general to support the strikers. If they win this dispute - the working class overall will gain more confidence.

You might expect the working class to support the strikers but do you have some solid, quantifiable evidence that they do or did? See this thread isn't about what you might expect. It's about arguing why you think they do or don't deserve class solidarity.

 

[soulman]

Not so civil, servants

Police raids in Old Swan.Twenty four properties in Old Swan were visited. Two Liverpool streets have been targeted in raids by police in a crackdown on anti-social behaviour.

Three properties in Old Swan were raided on Friday by officers investigating alleged drug dealing.

Officers from the Department of Work and Pensions, Customs & Excise, the Environment Agency and the RSPCA then visited 21 other addresses.

Six people were arrested during the raids and were held on offences including possession of firearms.

The raids were carried out in response to community concerns over anti-social behaviour.

Supt John Myles said: "The anti-social behaviour taskforce has waged a war on anti-social behaviour, as part of Merseyside Police's war against crime."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/6324147.stm

More here - https://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/regions/liverpool/2007/02/361378.html

 

[cockneyrebel]

Actually there is an argument about certain sections of the civil service and whether they should be allowed in the PCS. Personally I think there is strong argument that some shouldn't, such as the immigration police who physically impose deportations should be thrown out for instance.

 

[Cobbles]

Yes, given that a large number of them earn less than £15k per year and take a lower amount in the public sector than they would get in the private sector because of a sense of public service.

Yes, as with any industry there are chancers and people who drag down the reputation of the service but many of us who work within it do so because of that sense of public service.

I'm sure that there's the odd person employed within the Civil service who gave up a 100K a year Directorship to open the post in the bowels of the DVLA or type statistics into a DEFRA database out of a heartfelt sense of "public service".......

Surely it's more accurate to presume that most people who work in 15K jobs do so because they don't have the qualifications or experience to equip them to do anything better. Let's face it, technology is replacing low level admin jobs throughout all sectors so why should the Civil Service be immune?

 

[mk12]

You're mistaking us for people who care what you think.

But while we're here, I'd like to know what the child-labourers of Bangladesh have done for the working class eh? I heard they worked right throught the Liverpool Dockers Strike. Wankers.

As for Macdonalds workers. When have they taken action when the working class is up against state repression? Just sat there when the miners were up against it. Arseholes.

^ is a good point which soulman ignored.

 

[soulman]

Originally Posted by mutley
You're mistaking us for people who care what you think.

But while we're here, I'd like to know what the child-labourers of Bangladesh have done for the working class eh? I heard they worked right throught the Liverpool Dockers Strike. Wankers.

As for Macdonalds workers. When have they taken action when the working class is up against state repression? Just sat there when the miners were up against it. Arseholes.

^ is a good point which soulman ignored.

Well there's a couple of points...

1. Who does mutley think he's speaking on behalf of. The civil service, the proletariat, posters on this site, marxist-leninists, who exactly?

2. It may have escaped mutley but Bangladeshi child labourers and Macdonalds workers are not employed by the State. So called civil servants are just that, servants of the state, servants who oversee and administer the state.

 

[mk12]

Do you think all those employed by the state are not working class then?

 

[soulman]

Do you think all those employed by the state are not working class then?

If you mean is every civil servant working class, then no I don't think that's the case. Do you?

 

[Streathamite]

But when did civil servants show the working class solidarity?

just in case ylou haven't noticed, over the past 30 years there's been f-all show of w/c class solidarity from most parts of the working class.
and you'd make a truly pisspoor marxist...ol' karl's 'gateway exam' was whether you sell your labour or not, and whether you have some ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange.
by that yardstick, every civil servant below the open structure is working class

 

[Streathamite]

By administering the state.

so, umm, let's divide up everyone who isn't 100% ruling class, get them fighting against each other AND alienate every single public sector employee into the bargain.
way to go! trebles and paycuts all round!

 

[soulman]

just in case ylou haven't noticed, over the past 30 years there's been f-all show of w/c class solidarity from most parts of the working class.
and you'd make a truly pisspoor marxist...ol' karl's 'gateway exam' was whether you sell your labour or not, and whether you have some ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange.
by that yardstick, every civil servant below the open structure is working class

A "truly pisspoor marxist", I'll take that as a compliment then. Couldn't give a fuck what Karl Marx wrote or didn't write...

 

[Streathamite]

A "truly pisspoor marxist", I'll take that as a compliment then. Couldn't give a fuck what Karl Marx wrote or didn't write...

it's just a wild stab in the dark, a real long shot....but I'd hazard a guess that his various writings have influenced working class politics, and the politics of members of the class more than yours have! so tell me why that definition of class isn't valid....
and you seem to be lumping together every employee of a dept of state - in fact every state employee indiscriminately, regardless of salary, seniority, role etc. is there really any logic behind bracketing the poor sods behind the screen at the local dole office with (say) the head of the diplomatic service?

 

[soulman]

so, umm, let's divide up everyone who isn't 100% ruling class, get them fighting against each other AND alienate every single public sector employee into the bargain.
way to go! trebles and paycuts all round!

That's one way to polarise an argument. Here's another - Say nothing and do nothing while the cunts in the civil service are cataloging you, databasing you, and sealing off your streets with the police and demanding your ID and access to your home. But you can't blame them, they're working class, just doing their job.

 

[Streathamite]

That's one way to polarise an argument. Here's another - Say nothing and do nothing while the cunts in the civil service are cataloging you, databasing you, and sealing off your streets with the police and demanding your ID and access to your home. But you can't blame them, they're working class, just doing their job.

you mean EVERY public sector employee is engaged in a collective conspiracy to put you under intense perswonal surveillance, 24/7? blimey, you muzst have really pissed them off.
here's a THIRD suggestion - only this time, a sensible one.
1) differentiate between public sector workers with REAL power, authority etc - ESPECIALLY those involved in Home Office, FCo, Treasury, DSS - and those who don't.
2) accept the blindingly obvious; all state employment is pyramidal in structure - like most employment, full stop etc, and that consequently not only are you far more likely to make common cause with someone the further down the pile they are; there's strength in numbers down the bottom too.
so what could be wrong with that?

 

[Streathamite]

. Personally I think there is strong argument that some shouldn't, such as the immigration police who physically impose deportations should be thrown out for instance.

I like that argument very much!

 

[soulman]

it's just a wild stab in the dark, a real long shot....but I'd hazard a guess that his various writings have influenced working class politics, and the politics of members of the class more than yours have! so tell me why that definition of class isn't valid....
and you seem to be lumping together every employee of a dept of state - in fact every state employee indiscriminately, regardless of salary, seniority, role etc. is there really any logic behind bracketing the poor sods behind the screen at the local dole office with (say) the head of the diplomatic service?

Go and ask anyone on the street, in the ale house, in your workplace, in fact anyone beyond your little group of lefty mates, if they think the girl in the job centre is the same social/economic class as the head of the diplomatic service. It isn't valid because no one but a few marxists think it is...