Do angry vegans turn you against going vegan?

Discussion in 'UK politics, current affairs and news' started by Watermelon Man, Jul 10, 2017.

  1. 8ball

    8ball Considerably more oppressed than yow

    If this wasn’t such a niche thread it could well have ended up with ‘boat happy’ in the annals of Urban history.
    HoratioCuthbert and Spymaster like this.
  2. Spymaster

    Spymaster Cockney Wanker

    Indeed. There’s also a certain irony in ddraig inadvertently posting one of the funniest things I’ve seen on the boards for ages!
  3. Spymaster

    Spymaster Cockney Wanker

    :D :thumbs:

  4. Horus Snacks

    Horus Snacks Banned Banned

  5. Horus Snacks

    Horus Snacks Banned Banned

    None of this is a good argument. It tells us nothing other than some people ate meat free meals sometimes.
  6. ddraig

    ddraig dros ben llestri

    so can I come round and kick/slice open/kill your cat/dog/hamster?
    it tells us that less animals are dying for food, which is a very good thing
  7. 8ball

    8ball Considerably more oppressed than yow

    Well, not directly. It just suggests more meals don’t have meat or fish in than a year ago.

    It’s not an argument for anything either, just some market research results.

    Though it is certainly crushing stereotypes; next time I hear a Dutch person say: “the thing about those British is that a minimum of 75% of their meals have meat or fish in them”, I’ll have this article ready-loaded on my phone and shove it right in their face.

    That’ll show ‘em - the “three-quarters-of-meals-minumum-including-animal-content-not-including-eggs-or-dairy” assuming bastards! :mad:

    I should go round their country and kill their pets - teach them some fucking empathy! :mad: :mad:
    NoXion and Spymaster like this.
  8. 8ball

    8ball Considerably more oppressed than yow

    Actually marginally more extreme than ddraig, there.

    Though ddraig is funnier. :D
    Spymaster likes this.
  9. AnnaKarpik

    AnnaKarpik Queen of all she surveys

    It tells us no such thing, I went to the trouble of quoting part of that survey which makes exactly that point.
  10. littlebabyjesus

    littlebabyjesus one of Maxwell's demons

    Regarding the train example, you're not given the option 'kill nobody', so I would suggest that this belongs to a separate argument. Killing in self-defence even where the person is innocent belongs to a similar category - again, 'kill nobody' isn't an option.

    However, I do accept that these arguments can be extended to the killing of non-culpable animals. One difference would be, as in my rat example, that you'd be killing them precisely because they present a danger to humans. You might also kill animals that present a danger to crops or other animals, perhaps not even for the direct benefit of humans: you might kill animals as a result of a calculation that their presence will be devastating to an ecosystem and act on behalf of that ecosystem regardless of direct human benefit. But would you kill non-culpable humans to protect an ecosystem?

    There is also the danger in this kind of thought experiment that we lose the sense of uncertainty about the future that is always there in the real world. So a man is in a sinking boat with two children. He thinks he is is the only one strong enough to steer the boat, and he thinks that they will sink before they're rescued with all that weight. What does he do? Surely the human response is that he tries to save all three of them, even if that means that they probably all die. Or he throws himself off the boat to give the children a chance. The least human response, I would suggest, would be to throw one of the children into the water, even if he sincerely believes this to be the best chance of saving one of the children. Our calculations are not always utilitarian.
    8ball and Spymaster like this.
  11. Spymaster

    Spymaster Cockney Wanker

    Oh my days, he’s at it again! I do like to wake up to a laugh though. :D

    ddraig , what point do you think you’re making by suggesting you get all Jack The Ripper on people’s pets?
  12. Spymaster

    Spymaster Cockney Wanker

    Why is it more extreme? I can’t think of any sulituation where can animal’s rights can be reasonably argued to equal or surpass those of a human in similar circumstances.
  13. mojo pixy

    mojo pixy unquantifiable hazards

    no god wtf.jpg
    NoXion and Spymaster like this.
  14. Horus Snacks

    Horus Snacks Banned Banned

    Why is it extreme to think my, as a human, interests are more important to me than those of an animal who cannot engage in the social contract and reason to the same degree?

    Why do you assume my post was intended as humour?

    All it says is that when there are conflicting interests I pick humans over animals. It doesn't even suggest we shouldn't find ways to achieve goals that don't cause undue suffering to animals, this would be my preference - but only where possible.

    So if killing a few rabbits in a lab meant we could cure cancer, I would probably pick curing cancer over the wellbeing of a brace of rabbits. Doesn't mean i find that funny or take pleasure in it.
  15. Horus Snacks

    Horus Snacks Banned Banned

    Is owning pets ok? Interesting

    I would love to answer your question but i've no idea how you've inferring the right to breach my personal property (which in this example would include my personal livestock/pets) from my answer. Your question implied there are good reasons to overrule animal rights from my perspective, can you give me a good reason why you should need to harm my cat/dog/hamster? I don't consider your personal bloodliust to be satisfactory, but you'd be welcome to try and bust into my home. If you did you'd be met with considerable force :D

    Animals die for food throughout nature, if less of them did so that would mean predator specices would be suffering. Most predator hunts fail anyway, so this is already not a good thing from their perspective
    Spymaster likes this.
  16. mojo pixy

    mojo pixy unquantifiable hazards

    Exactly what I mean. That kind of stuff does no favours for anyone, and certainly doesn't help the cause. Quite the opposite IMO.
    dylanredefined and Spymaster like this.
  17. Yossarian

    Yossarian free shrugs

    Going back to the question in the thread title - there have been all kinds of arguments put forth in this thread for and against being a vegan. Some of them are sensible, others have been ridiculous, offensive, weird, or just stupid.

    Have any of them put me off thinking being vegan is a good thing that I should work toward? Not one little bit. I don't fully agree with uncompromising animal rights activists, but I respect their opinions and I've got no reason to tell them they should think differently.
    William of Walworth and ddraig like this.
  18. Spymaster

    Spymaster Cockney Wanker

    I haven’t seen a single meat eater telling a veg-head that they should change their minds on this thread. There’s been some piss-taking but the only genuine arrogance has come the other way with the plant botherers insisting that animals are being “murdered”, fuckwitted comparisons to slavery and nazism, daft pictures and wtf videos, and now bizarre suggestions of kicking the shit out of people’s pets. Most meat eaters here seem not to give a toss what anyone else eats. The same just can’t be said of veggies.
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2018
  19. AnnaKarpik

    AnnaKarpik Queen of all she surveys

    But what did you think before reading the thread, I mean have you changed your mind in any way?

    My perception of vegans has changed after reading the thread, not for the better, and tbf probably quite unjustly as regards the majority of them but there we are.
    The rare forays into genuine discussion have been interesting but in the end, I can accept the fact that other animals are farmed and die for food. There are lots of things I dislike about the way it's done but that's a different argument.
    hegley and Spymaster like this.
  20. Horus Snacks

    Horus Snacks Banned Banned

    I personally don't find veganism compelling or remotely sustainable personally. It seems a very sophisticated asceticism based on superficial notions of sustainability and morality. Grazing livestock can be beneficial to the environment while some non-meat products (palm oil, iirc) results in deforestation. Again, capitalism is th eenemy.

    If your diet consists of eating fake meats so as to make your breakfast look like a 'normal' breakfast, imho, you're doing it wrong :D

    Doesn't offend me though, nor do i think you shouldn't have the right.
  21. Yossarian

    Yossarian free shrugs

    Not been much change for me, tbh - I knew there were people who believe animals have the same rights as humans, so there hasn't been much said that isn't a logical extension of that. And since there are millions of vegans out there and maybe four or five vegans posting on this thread, I'm not going to make the mistake of seeing everything said here as representative of how all vegans feel.
  22. andysays

    andysays Defiantly non-premium member

    Of all the things I never thought I'd see on Urban, ddraig channeling cat killer @franceslengel is pretty high up on the list :D
    Spymaster likes this.
  23. 8ball

    8ball Considerably more oppressed than yow

    I was responding to the comment that human interests trump animal interests always, in every way. Not taking the case where the injury to rights might be equivalent. So taking an example at the most extreme end, torturing a horse for shits and giggles would not be justified.
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2018
  24. 8ball

    8ball Considerably more oppressed than yow

    See my post above. :)

    I wasn't, I don't think ddraig's posts are really intended as humour either. Though it's a pretty scathing form of satire if so, and has gone over the heads of most of us.

    Agree. I would prefer minimising tests on whole animal models where possible.
    Spymaster likes this.
  25. Horus Snacks

    Horus Snacks Banned Banned

    i take human interest to mean something substantive, like curing a disease or optimal nutrition.

    Not personal preference - killing or torturing an animal for pleasure. I don't think that qualifies since that could be applied simply between our own species and is thus merely emotional preference.
    dylanredefined and 8ball like this.
  26. 8ball

    8ball Considerably more oppressed than yow

    When you combine it with the increase in meat products sold over the festive period, part of it could be that the context that people see meat in is changing. Or maybe some of them were considering Veganuary and this was akin to an "extinction burst".

    Also, the big reductions on Quorn products in the supermarket suggested to me (and it seems sensible anyway), that it is vegetarians rather than full-on carnivals that have been partaking of the last month's experiment. I think that research might be indicative of a few things going on.
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2018
  27. 8ball

    8ball Considerably more oppressed than yow

    Vegetarianism is historically intimately tied up with religious ascetic traditions.
    It would be odd if that strand of its DNA had fallen away entirely.

    Prediction: now that we have had Veganuary, let's see if talk of Lent has any resurgence this year.
  28. 8ball

    8ball Considerably more oppressed than yow

    Yeah, that became clear later. Though I think most people who eat meat are aware of alternatives and 'optimal nutrition' isn't usually the primary goal. However 'optimal' is defined...
  29. Horus Snacks

    Horus Snacks Banned Banned

    Not sure how else one could define optimal other than in terms of nutrition and health. That's why i say animal food, for example organ meats, are optimal, because they are loaded with nutrition and lacking in a lot of stuff that isn't healthy.
  30. keybored

    keybored #NeverUseTheInternetAgain

    And why don't funeral parlours have human corpses displayed in their windows? Why are they trying to hide what their industry is really about, eh? :mad::confused::mad:

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