DNA tests ...or else???

[fela fan]

I'm not your love (God - it's like we're back in the 60s and 70s!) and I'm not a moron.

Maybe not, but you're doing a good job of acting like one on this thread. A naive one at that. Britain is having freedom after freedom taken away from millions of citizens. All in the name of a war against terror (started by blair and his cronies), and because murder is stalking the streets of the country by mad white young men killers.

Punish the millions for the actions of a couple of dozen people. Yeak rock on baby, that's fucking sane thinking innit...

[i wonder how police caught murderers before dna...]
[one killer, four thousand to be tested for dna, good usage of police time that, clever detective work that]

Britain's in a fucking mess.

 

[fela fan]

watch it love, your prejudice is showing.

If britain has a lot of such people, full of prejudice, thinking they're good citizens, disparaging whole groups of other citizens, telling everyone what's good for them and what's good for the country, then yes, britain is fucked.

 

[Kaka Tim]

And the DNA database has to be seen in conjuntion with all the other orwellian technologies inexorably creeping into our lives - particularly surivelance and tracking technology - and the steady chipping away of civil liberties that has been going on since Michael Howards Criminal Justice Bill in 1994.

Fully plumped - its not just the cilivl liberties and liberty of white men in a certain age range who will be affected, its everyones - particuarly marginlised groups. Which could be single mums, immigrants, people with HIV, people with drug or obesity problems - depending on the (possibly 'well intentioned') whims of the government of the day.

Remember - existing laws agaisnt 'terrorism' are already being repeatedly used against protestors and anyone else who wants to show public dissent agasint the state - I am absolutely certain that a DNA database will be abused in the same way - in fact it is an abuse of human rights just having the fucking thing in the first place.

Wake up for fucks sake - democracy and notions of human rights are not a natural state that we've arrived at by historical inevitiabliity - its a historical anomaly that needs to be constantly defended and protected from its natural enemies; those who seek to rule us.

 

[jiggajagga]

If britain has a lot of such people, full of prejudice, thinking they're good citizens, disparaging whole groups of other citizens, telling everyone what's good for them and what's good for the country, then yes, britain is fucked.

Nice to know you haven't lost your touch Fela!!!
Good on ya!

 

[pogofish]

No I don't. I want to look at the real situation here and now, not the abstract - 1984 was 22 years ago. Any man who would refuse to help the cops in this case is a selfish paranoid creep. It's not a crime to be like that, but it isn't very noble either.

Fuck that!

How's this for a non-abstract example then?

I had my life torn to pieces for a good couple of years after cooperating with the police on an investigation into a serious crime once. There was a reason to eliminate me initially as I had been with a group of people who were vaugely in the area so I thought "fair enough." Later on tho, despite a complete lack of any evidence for either, a second crime was thrown into the picture - for no reason other than I was already on the system for the first investigation & all-hell really broke loose.

Eventually after losing count of the number of times I'd been pulled-in for questioning, harrassed, followed, as good as named in the press, had a relative hospitalised by the fuckers & had friends pulled in to be browbeaten into saying black was white etc... I secured hard evidence of some of the illegal tactics used against me & got my solicitor to act - I ended-up with a grovelling apology from a very senior officer whilst later, an enquiry into the whole investigation castigated it for incompetence & wasting its time pursuing the likes of me whilst ignoring some very relavent suspects & lines of enquiry elsewhere. Needless to say, the real culprit/s were never caught.

Thanks to this, I would now be very unwilling to cooperate & would expect some sort of evidence before doing so or complying in any way.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I'm not your love (God - it's like we're back in the 60s and 70s!) and I'm not a moron. I am, or aspire to be a good citizen. What is wrong with being a good citizen? In particular, I want the police to catch men who kill women. I could care less about the civil liberties of white or light-skinned men aged 20-40 who can't be bothered to help in this.

Blair and his lot gained control by winning elections. People like me campaigned and voted in our millions for this to happen. Yes - a massive spooky conspiracy of millions of good citizens and we all want to spy on your grim little life.

Surely though, as someone who aspires to be a good citizen, your energies should be turned as much to the preservation of those liberties the present government (and their predecessors) seem intent on disposing of, as to the promulgation of laws that bring "safety to the streets"?

Being a good citizen is about serving your nation and it's people well, rather than servicing particular political agendas. surely?

 

[Fruitloop]

This one seems to have got 'good citizen' mixed up with 'useful idiot'.

 

[atitlan]

Take the tax laws as an example.

The government determines the rules by which tax is gathered and in framing the legislation leave holes that can be exploited by those wishing to avoid paying tax. Regardless of the spirit of the legislation the desire by people to avoid paying tax will result in them making use of the loopholes.

Whatever tax legislation is passed you know without doubt that from the moment the Bill is published someone will have an interest in finding the holes and exploiting them.

Considering the hypothetical possibilities of how a new tax law may be avoided is essential to tightening up the proposals and language to ensure that it isn't.

There is a similar dynamic at work in the police and similar bodies. Regardless of the spirit of the legislation or the intention of the politicians in introducing it, the pressures that exist to obtain a conviction or to maintain public order will result in the police using whichever laws make it easiest for them to question or arrest the greatest number of people. If a government introduces laws that grant draconian powers then they will be used against everyone they can be used against, not those they were intended to be used against.

We can already see this in terms of the abuses of the recent terrorist legislation. Not only has it offered a simple tool for the detention of people who the police want to question regardless of having any tangible reason for suspicion but also because, in terms of public order, the easiest demonstration to police is one that doesn't take place. So a dynamic exists to harass people on demonstrations to discourage them from attending another and to restrict those that do take place as much as possible using whatever legislation can be used - again whether it was the intention of the legislators that it should be used that way is irrelevant; how it can be used is what matters.

These are real world examples that are happening now and which were predicted as hypothetical consequences beforehand.

So in the case of DNA, if it is possible within the system to retain DNA, it will be retained. If a database exists of people's DNA and it is open for the police to use then those people will be regularly visited by police investigation by virtue of being in the system.

If the whole country is on a DNA database then all those interests that feel they could benefit from access to will apply pressure on the government to give them access. A national DNA database will inevitably lead to private interests such as insurance and private health firms gaining access and screening people according to their particular prejudices.

In regards to all laws that seek to curtail our liberties or which grant additional powers over us to the authorities it is essential to seriously comtemplate the worst case scenario because if you can conjure up that scenario you can be sure that someone in a position to exploit that power has also contemplated the same scenario and given the right political opportunity will take advantage of it.

 

[zaphod22]

I'm one of the 4000 men in the area who has received a letter from the police to voluntarily attend and I have been trying to decide whether or not to go. This thread has reinforced both sides of the arguments to go or not and I'm still undecided.

 

[Fruitloop]

4000 men?! Nothing like casting a wide net....

Atitlan - great post

 

[fela fan]

Nice to know you haven't lost your touch Fela!!!
Good on ya!

Never mate! I still care about the country i spent my 27 formative years in. But it's still in a completely fucked up state. What i really never got was how we knock what we're good at, yet defend the indefensible.

Fullyplumped's posts on this thread are rather a worry eh?!! I'm sure they're repeated by the millions. It's why the country's fucked. So much bloody divisiveness...

 

[fela fan]

I'm one of the 4000 men in the area who has received a letter from the police to voluntarily attend and I have been trying to decide whether or not to go. This thread has reinforced both sides of the arguments to go or not and I'm still undecided.

Get a grip man!! One killer and a request for 4000 voluntary testings of dna. Of course, were the killer one of those 4000, he'd of course volunteer his dna testing. Never in a million sundays would he piss off...

You do what you want, but the country's doing orwell's 1984 to a brilliant fit...

 

[bluestreak]

I'm not your love (God - it's like we're back in the 60s and 70s!) and I'm not a moron. I am, or aspire to be a good citizen. What is wrong with being a good citizen? In particular, I want the police to catch men who kill women. I could care less about the civil liberties of white or light-skinned men aged 20-40 who can't be bothered to help in this.

Blair and his lot gained control by winning elections. People like me campaigned and voted in our millions for this to happen. Yes - a massive spooky conspiracy of millions of good citizens and we all want to spy on your grim little life.

a good citizen, i think, has foresight and questions the actions of those in control, and acts in the best interests of the people. and considering that you're self-confessed blairite, i think that no matter how good your intentions are, you're being led astray by a bunch of politicians who are willing to use your personal prejudices to make money and gain all sort of control, and who aren't good citizens themselves. if you can't give a shit about my civil liberties, why should i give a shit about your desires? but i'm better than you, because i want to police to catch killers too - and if i had anything that would help i'd pass it along like a shot. sadly i don't, and seeing as i haven't killed anyone i don't see why they should have my details on file.

 

[Kaka Tim]

Then theres the issue of DNA profiling.

With the database they can identify which parts of the population are at higher risk of heart disease, cancer, obesity and other health problems. They can act to intevene (contacting individuals, targeting health programs and resources). Now you might think 'fine - thats great'. (leaving aside the obvious dangers of insurers, banks and employers getting the info).

but then they might try to indentify people with a increased likelihood of people suffering various mental health problems or people who are more likely to be violent or have lower IQs - what sort of 'preventative intervention' might take place then? (there is lots of research going on into genetic links to behaviour patterns).

They might combine the DNA info with other socio/economic and to identify individuals more likely to be invovled in crime or other anti-social behaviour.

And of course much of this info will be wrong or based on flawed theories (especially the genetics stuff).

Drip drip drip - each step would be for the greater good of society and it will be argued that the individuals affected will be 'helped'. It wont be a grand plan - it will be incremental.

And then your on the way to a high tech survillance state where every individual is 'risk-profiled' on a huge database accesible by any state department with an interest (health, education, police, DSS, local government,spooks) - which means thousands of people prying into and attempting to order your life in order to further the interests of the state.

"Fascism doesn't start at Auchwitz - thats where it ends".

 

[Kaka Tim]

Oh yeah - I had a small experence of 'database mission creep' a few months ago.

I got a letter telling me that my car had been observed with belongings on display in the back and advising me on crime prevention. They got my address from the DVLA data base. On one level - small beer. On another level - fuck off, i dont want state officials (i guessing a traffic warden) nosing in my car and then sending me unsolicited advice. You see once they've got these tools, whatever their original intentions, they end up being put to all sorts of uses by more and more people.

 

[squonk]

Whoa! I think many people here need to chill and take a big breath.

Why do so many here assume the worst in government? The state posesses the means and degree of sophistication necessary to combat enemies common to both ourselves on the left and the government.

Imagine if a complete DNA database of the British public was in place at the time of the dreadful murder of Stephen Lawrence. It is quite possible those maniac would now be behind bars.

 

[jiggajagga]

Whoa! I think many people here need to chill and take a big breath.

Why do so many here assume the worst in government? The state posesses the means and degree of sophistication necessary to combat enemies common to both ourselves on the left and the government.

Imagine if a complete DNA database of the British public was in place at the time of the dreadful murder of Stephen Lawrence. It is quite possible those maniac would now be behind bars.

Imagine what someone like Hitler COULD have done if he had had a more efficient data base?
Like I say, think long-term.
If it can happen there, it can happen here. Yes?

 

[Kaka Tim]

Whoa! I think many people here need to chill and take a big breath.

Why do so many here assume the worst in government? The state posesses the means and degree of sophistication necessary to combat enemies common to both ourselves on the left and the government.

Imagine if a complete DNA database of the British public was in place at the time of the dreadful murder of Stephen Lawrence. It is quite possible those maniac would now be behind bars.

Yes - and if every child was implanted with a permanent tracking device poor hollie and jessica might have lived ...

 

[Fong]

Imagine what someone like Hitler COULD have done if he had had a more efficient data base?
Like I say, think long-term.
If it can happen there, it can happen here. Yes?

We have leaders in this country who will not come out against Guantanamo Bay, despite us ALL knowing that in private they are against it.

If they were the opposition, they would be up in arms about Guantanamo, they would be screaming at the government to do stand up to america and highlighting each UN and Amnesty report that comes out.

If our own leaders won't stand up for their principles when it comes to people being locked up for years on end with hardly any legal recourse, no trial and being systematically mistreated.

You really think I want to give them powers they can abuse?

And what happens when someone abuses such powers, like Bush and Guantanamo?

They stand around whistling in the wind?

We don't even have to 'pretend' that dangerous leaders 'might' turn up tomorrow.

We have dangerous leaders now. By their inaction they are equally as culpable.

 

[squonk]

Imagine what someone like Hitler COULD have done if he had had a more efficient data base?
Like I say, think long-term.
If it can happen there, it can happen here. Yes?

But we don't have Adolf Hitler in charge - yet! You're getting hysterical.

I simply don't believe it could happen here. Only a few days ago I heard on the radio Francis Maude, the Conservative Party Chairman (I think), tearing into the BNP with all the passion and sincerity of anyone on the Left. Why would Labour or indeed Tory governments use such technology against their allies in the fight against fascism? It simply doesn't make sense.

As surprising as it may seem to many on the Left, both Labour and Conservatives have more in common with the anti-fascism Left than they do with the BNP. Let's stop getting so jumpy and work with those who have the means to defeat the nazi menace.

 

[Azrael23]

I wouldn`t hand my life code out willy nilly especially to faceless pyramids of power.

This kind of thing is simply the beginning unfortunately.

Whose seen all the banks of face scanning cameras up in London? Literally 15 cameras on huge polls, they then match your face using FR software matched to drivers licenses and passports. Then everyone wonders why they want everyone to have an ID card. Get us all in the system, tracked scanned etc.

They`re setting up brain scanners in airports and subway stations in america to spot brain activity that belies anxiety or stress. The kind you`d feel if you were a bomber.....or a commuter!!!!!
Is this the thought police? The computer said your guilty!
On the very same rail lines they have the COBRA teams of armed guards for the safety of the US public of course. Black ski masks, black boots, black helmets...good `ol stormtroopers...

We`re following suit. Look at recent law changes, Look at what we`ve got coming in the legislative and regualtory reform bill.

 

[Fez909]

I don't think all the Hitler references are valid in this discussion, and they're distracting from the issue.

The fact is that the govt. are building a DNA database of innocent people, against their will , and some people on this thread are defending that. How is that not a violation of civil liberties?

 

[Fez909]

They`re setting up brain scanners in airports and subway stations in america

Got a link for that? Not heard anything of it...

 

[atitlan]

But we don't have Adolf Hitler in charge - yet! You're getting hysterical.

I simply don't believe it could happen here. Only a few days ago I heard on the radio Francis Maude, the Conservative Party Chairman (I think), tearing into the BNP with all the passion and sincerity of anyone on the Left. Why would Labour or indeed Tory governments use such technology against their allies in the fight against fascism? It simply doesn't make sense.

You're absolutely right ... someone with Hitler's agenda couldn't happen here. We've seen, fought and defeated that particular evil. Our perception of the 'evil leader' is shaped by the experience of WWII.

But what you are ignoring is that the abuse of power doesn't have to mirror Hitler's to inflict suffering on a country's population. The common themes that run through governments and leaders that resort to widespread oppression are the desire to cling on to power and the belief that society is best served by imposing a single vision on it.

Blair's government has this tendency in large measure. His absolute belief in the rightness of his vision leads to strong authoritarianism, which has the by-product of a desire to enforce conformity.

What happens when you try to enforce conformity? The answer is that those at the edges of society start to become victims - tools originally introduced to deal with criminals are used to persecute those who don't conform. The first victims of such measures will always be those that protest against them. It is no accident that authoritarian governments always start their oppression with those groups that are capable of mobilising collective action.

As long as the current trend to out-tough the opposition continues, measures that erode all our freedoms will continue to be introduced and demanded in the interests of protecting 'people like us'. Of course, at some point every one of us has the potential to cease being the 'people like us' that those in authority are thinking of. At that point you join the ranks of the victims of oppression.

Every oppressive government will use whatever tools it has available to deal with political dissidents. And every one of us has the potential to be a dissident if the winds of political change blow counter to our viewpoint.

The answer is vigilance to the introduction of potential tools of oppression and the sure knowledge that every one of us holds political views that some sectors of society feel should be eradicated and are thus a potential dissident and target of the very tools that we are willing to see introduced to protect 'people like us'.

 

[Azrael]

If it's any comfort England and Wales are alone in this Orwellian DNA taking madness. Even Scotland destroys samples of acquitted people. Our law's slipped far beyond any other civilized country's, and we've not even noticed. Most places you can only get DNA for serious offences, you need a court order to get it, it's destroyed if your innocent, and even if you're guilty it's only filed away for serious crimes. Used to be the case here before the infamous 1994 Criminal Justice Act.

Even if this indefensible law on DNA retention is kicked onto the bonfire where it belongs, you'll not get the actual samples to follow unless you follow the Canadian example and make it a serious offence for the police to retain innocent people's DNA. See how long they continue to "forget" to destroy samples then.

 

[In Bloom]

Why are there two Azraels here?

 

[atitlan]

Why are there two Azraels here?

Cloning?


actually one is azrael, the other is azrael23.

 

[Azrael23]

You're absolutely right ... someone with Hitler's agenda couldn't happen here. We've seen, fought and defeated that particular evil. Our perception of the 'evil leader' is shaped by the experience of WWII.

But what you are ignoring is that the abuse of power doesn't have to mirror Hitler's to inflict suffering on a country's population. The common themes that run through governments and leaders that resort to widespread oppression are the desire to cling on to power and the belief that society is best served by imposing a single vision on it.

Blair's government has this tendency in large measure. His absolute belief in the rightness of his vision leads to strong authoritarianism, which has the by-product of a desire to enforce conformity.

What happens when you try to enforce conformity? The answer is that those at the edges of society start to become victims - tools originally introduced to deal with criminals are used to persecute those who don't conform. The first victims of such measures will always be those that protest against them. It is no accident that authoritarian governments always start their oppression with those groups that are capable of mobilising collective action.

As long as the current trend to out-tough the opposition continues, measures that erode all our freedoms will continue to be introduced and demanded in the interests of protecting 'people like us'. Of course, at some point every one of us has the potential to cease being the 'people like us' that those in authority are thinking of. At that point you join the ranks of the victims of oppression.

Every oppressive government will use whatever tools it has available to deal with political dissidents. And every one of us has the potential to be a dissident if the winds of political change blow counter to our viewpoint.

The answer is vigilance to the introduction of potential tools of oppression and the sure knowledge that every one of us holds political views that some sectors of society feel should be eradicated and are thus a potential dissident and target of the very tools that we are willing to see introduced to protect 'people like us'.

I agree with you on all counts.

However with 3 countries invaded and more and more power accrued on the basis of a staged terror attack (9/11) the parallels to Hitler are justified.

They`ve both been Times man of the year as well!

 

[detective-boy]

how do we know they won't be kept detective boy? written assurances aren't very reassuring, given that evidence suggests the government want a complete national DNA library....

...surely that's enough for many crimes, after all, if one of your relatives is on the list you'll get a close match show up won't you?

There is no legal basis for retaining samples provided entirely by consent, and never has been. There is, in fact, a legal basis for action against anyone retaining any such sample.

And the scienece doesn't work in such a way that if a relative "nearly" matches then you get thrown up as a suspect. There are some instances in which it can be used but it is not usually the case (and it does not appear that it will be in the foreseeable future).

 

[detective-boy]

If I have no alibi, if the police can show EVIDENCE that I was in the area of the crime at the relevant time, if I have a previous record for this type of offence then yes, I should be asked first then forced to give a DNA sample.

Your rant is incoherent and inconsistent. In this sentence you summarise exactly what will happen. All that the DNA screening is meant to achieve is an opportunity for those willing to cooperate to immediately remove themselves from the need to provide any alibi details, etc., allowing scarce resources to be focussed on those who remain.