Disruption at Book Fairs

Discussion in 'protest, direct action and demos' started by PeterTCA, Dec 2, 2018.

  1. smokedout

    smokedout criminal

    Just picking up on this. I think the London situation was pretty unique and one problem was that a very large and difficult event had been organised for a long time by an ever shrinking group of people who in retrospect were not given the support that was necessary for the event to be robust enough to weather things like this, particularly as personal relationships were also very much a factor. A more broadly organised bookfair, with more people putting in some graft, would probably have survived.
     
    nyxx likes this.
  2. Thimble Queen

    Thimble Queen person of tinge

    Ah 're Jacob Joyce I was under the impression they are an anarchist. Not doubting what you say but would deffo be interested to see where they clarified this.
     
  3. LynnDoyleCooper

    LynnDoyleCooper Up against the wall motherfucker.

    I think that's an optimistic take on it seeing as many other events and groups have imploded along similar lines, I think the London Bookfair was more spectacular as it was bigger and is more of a established event, rather than it being unique.
     
    ska invita likes this.
  4. co-op

    co-op Free the rhubarb crumble!

    Why don’t you address the very specific examples of dodginess raised by qwerty rather than just throwing up your usual smokescreen of “transphobia!”? You’re such a fraud - you pretend that you’re this impeccable liberal all concerned with the rights of an oppressed minority but the minute you get real feedback about people’s fears and experiences of real life you just start the parrot chant of “bigot” and all the rest of it. You don’t give a shit about anyone outside of your little club.
     
  5. ska invita

    ska invita back on the other side

    Was asked online Are You An Anarchist and said something about queer theory - sounded like a clear No to me. The thread has since been deleted.

    agree. Its not about numbers/relations of organisers but about how to deal with irreconcilable conflict IMO
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2018
    Thimble Queen likes this.
  6. co-op

    co-op Free the rhubarb crumble!


    Spot on. Absolutely spot on. There are so many people on here who are afraid to say what they think because they know that the repercussions on their lives are real and dangerous. People who can’t post because they can’t quite remember who knows who they are from some U75 offline gig 15 years ago and might get their job fucked up now for saying something forbidden by the trans police. Fuck you smokedout you’re a dishonest arsehole, weeping about your oppression while demanding that I “name names”.

    Fuck you.
     
  7. Thimble Queen

    Thimble Queen person of tinge


    I do wonder then, why they give a shit about what goes on at bookfair :confused:
     
  8. smokedout

    smokedout criminal

    Maybe you're right, but I got the impression the organisers were pretty burnt out before this even started and the row and aftermath was enough to make them call it a day. Manchester seems to have weathered the storm so far, as did the Radical Bookfair in London.
     
  9. ska invita

    ska invita back on the other side

    because he pracitices an african religion and Its Not Stupid. Open letter incoming >>>>>>>>>>

    (in case that wasnt clear, he was arguing about the Religion Is Stupid banner, and it was the soruce of his open letter and social media attack postings)
     
  10. Sea Star

    Sea Star have you ever explored your dark side?

    This is one of the most bigoted and disusting diatribes I've ever read on Urban -or anywhere. Full of bullshit and stitched together from smears, lies and innuendo. Not an ounce of evidence. It's fucking appalling and you should be ashamed of yourself.
     
  11. co-op

    co-op Free the rhubarb crumble!


    I hope people read it and compare it with this post of yours.
     
    JHE likes this.
  12. Struwwelpeter

    Struwwelpeter Earthling

    As someone who wants to find out more about the issues here, you've completely lost me as an interested listener with this attack on what seemed to me to be a well written post. If you think it's bullshit - set out why, with a reasoned argument and some evidence to back it up. Otherwise, you are the one that comes over as a bigot.
     
    bicyclist likes this.
  13. Athos

    Athos Well-Known Member

    Good luck with that. Lol.
     
  14. Sea Star

    Sea Star have you ever explored your dark side?

    the post i criticised contained no evidence - why are you not asking them to provide evidence for what they said? I don't really take kindly to having to prove i'm not a paedo or a paedo apologist - how about you?
     
  15. Sea Star

    Sea Star have you ever explored your dark side?

    honestly if you want a reasoned debate about trans issues then it has to be lifted out of the gutter. The claims of child abuse and rape, etc has been addressed to death on Urban but people keep going there.If you want to learn stop pissing everyone else off with unsubstantiated and bigoted claims.
     
  16. Struwwelpeter

    Struwwelpeter Earthling

    I've not made any claims - I'm ignorant in this, I'll admit. But your attitude has turned me off wanting to learn more of your side of the argument. I am prejudiced about loud screamy types who want to shut down discussion (on both sides), but since you are louder and screamier, you've lost me. Now, I'll just keep out of this whole issue and probably continue in my ignorance and in your view bigotry. I expect you'll chalk that up as a win.
     
    mauvais likes this.
  17. PeterTCA

    PeterTCA Well-Known Member

    The constant de-railing of this post reflects the intrusions of Book Fairs over the past few years. Nothing at all is said about the
    20-odd stallholders, the speakers and the networking at Manchester. To gain publicity all you have to do is disrupt an event.

    Book fairs are only one part of the movement. They are organised by small groups of activists. Securing city-centre premises
    is not always easy. Venues come with T&Cs (no smoking, no alcohol, or as was the case with Partisan, no trans-phobes).

    I would be happy to see many more Book Fairs, arranged around the country, by a variety of people. You do not need
    permission. You just take on responsibility.

    All you need to do is spend a few months working on the idea, investing some money, drumming up publicity, and inviting stallholders and speakers.
    It's thankless work. And as an organiser, you end up branded as a Fascist (London) or a Stalinist (Manchester).
     
    maomao likes this.
  18. Riklet

    Riklet procrastinación

    I still feel very stuck between both the sides on the whole trans stuff. And the vitriolic posts online only make me less sure. I think that's a good post from qwerty to some extent but I can also see the other side - to deny that many trans people dont suffer and arent seriously oppressed is to have your head in the sand.

    When so many shit things happen to women daily around the world often pretty much unchallenged, focusing on trans people as a particularly risk seems pretty loony.

    But it's the risk of identity politics and only viewing people as a little happy homogenous collective group - criticism of a few scumbags is taken as an insult to all. Which community or society around the world doesnt have people making mistakes? fucking up? or worse, doing horrendous things.

    The feeling for me is that this can now no longer be discussed or approached fully at left/anarchist events because someone might take it as an affront to their identity, their rights etc.
     
    sunnysidedown likes this.
  19. Sea Star

    Sea Star have you ever explored your dark side?

    still way better than being branded a perverted,misogynist child rapist.
     
  20. Sea Star

    Sea Star have you ever explored your dark side?

    But why? Was it the bit that said weirdo trans people assigned male at birth like me were more likely to sympathise with child rapists?
     
  21. Riklet

    Riklet procrastinación

    I think as a post it's coherent and honest and sincere and attempts to address some of the issues in a rational manner. You have consistently failed to do exactly that. This is not to attack you as a person or to invalidate the struggles you have faced or to act out of spite - I think all of those things have happened in this thread btw - but merely my perception of a difficult issue where there is a lot of grey areas.

    FWIW I didn't interpret their post as saying that or being written out of biggotry and I dont agree with everything they said anyway. And I definitely wouldn't agree with what youve written. I feel sad and angry to see the hate coming out towards trans people, even though I think it's just more out in the open now, more messy. More public than before. I do have hope that with dialogue and communication at least some of the issues can be addressed and lives can be made better as a result. I don't however believe these complicated challenging issues can be solved by magic though, just by blindly accepting gender self-definition and "shutting down" anyone who might cause offense to some group in society. Critically analyzing whether any 40 year old man can expect to just suddenly "become" a lesbian woman and have everyone accept that as in some way positive is perfectly valid, even without mentioning Ian Huntley at all.

    The growing perception all across society right now is that people cannot really express themselves freely, cannot say what they want, or that debate must be censored. I think this is often exaggerated but there is some truth in it. The behaviour by activists on both sides does seem to contribute to this at the moment. The physical assaults, abuse and insults, shit behaviour on social media, stalking, pressuring people's workplaces, cancelling events etc. I am not saying there is never a time and a place for these things, I think they are all appropriate in certain situations of gravity - but not in a debate about fucking unisex toilets or what's best for teenagers. People have to be listened to and included in a free and fair debate - education cannot happen if people are not free to participate, to challenge or even to reject.
     
  22. ElizabethofYork

    ElizabethofYork Witchsmeller Pursuivant

    But nobody has called you a paedo or a paedo apologist. So you don't have to prove anything.
     
  23. ViolentPanda

    ViolentPanda Hardly getting over it.

    It's interesting that the author states "Attempts were made to remove the TERFs by some of the organisers but this unity was undermined...".

    Attempts by "some of the organisers" kind of contradicts the talk of "unity", doesn't it.? As for the self-backpatting about dealing with transphobia, that is kind of "ew!", given that a predicate of anarchism is equality, and that means a forum for both sides of the trans argument, or none at all, not a taking of sides, as appears to have happened.

    Apols for late response.
     
  24. ViolentPanda

    ViolentPanda Hardly getting over it.

    A "crime" that both sides of the argument are guilty of.
    IF your meeting has a policy of ruling out a particular subject, or a particular group of people, then it's not so much a public meeting, as a private endeavour.
    I'm sorry, but that's bollocks. Have you ever been in a "free-for-all" melee? They usually end in serious injury at the least, not just bruises and bloody noses. As for the suggestion that either side is deliberately provoking conflict in order to garner material for social media, grow the fuck up.[/quote]
     
    likesfish likes this.
  25. ViolentPanda

    ViolentPanda Hardly getting over it.

    No such idea really exists in feminisms. The "all men" refers to male-dominated institutional and structural inequality being an oppressive force on women all of the time. It's called patriarchy.
     
    likesfish likes this.
  26. mojo pixy

    mojo pixy unquantifiable hazards

    it's an oppressive force on men all of the time, too, which is why men should all be feminists and not ''MRAs''.

    i'm only saying because I meet men all the time who do not get this simple fact (probably not here at Urban but elsewhere definitely).
     
    Pickman's model likes this.
  27. ViolentPanda

    ViolentPanda Hardly getting over it.

    It's Pink News. They're pretty much the sine qua non of anti-lesbian publishing, at the moment.
     
  28. ViolentPanda

    ViolentPanda Hardly getting over it.

    It's an oppressive force mainly via class for men, in a much more asymmetrical way than it is for women though, IMO. That is, the higher up the class hierarchy a man ascends, the exponentially less influence patriarchy exerts. Women further up the class hierarchy still have the overarching expectations of their supposedly-primary gender role - to produce and rear offspring.
     
  29. smokedout

    smokedout criminal

    Do you feel the same about Diva who have been equally trans supportive?

    Are you going to join the ranks of straight men currently carefully explaining to trans supportive lesbians why they aren't proper lesbians? I thought you were better than this.
     
  30. ViolentPanda

    ViolentPanda Hardly getting over it.

    The problem is that paedophiles infiltrate anywhere that provides them an opportunity to access children. We know this from the sheer diversity of situations in which paedophiles have been found, including political, ideological and philosophical movements.
     

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