Disruption at Book Fairs 11

Discussion in 'protest, direct action and demos' started by PeterTCA, Dec 6, 2018.

  1. Rob Ray

    Rob Ray Irony is well sad

    I always wonder if anarchist ideas are so gosh-darn irrelevant and our criticisms of the status quo have so little to say, why do people like Anton get so angry about it? I mean either we're not of interest, in which case why the beef, or we are, in which case perhaps you might be a bit more considered than ranting on comedy-sketch strawmen.

    And Anton, hun, there's upwards of a third of the electorate you could be targeting with your get out and vote schtick, why are you targeting your polls enthusiasm at the one group which has specifically spent its time rejecting and re-thinking the entire concept of electoralism?
  2. SpookyFrank

    SpookyFrank King of the Rhodes

    You've got this completely arse backwards. Anarchism does not require purity of vision, only the removal or neutralisation of the invariably dangerous fuckers who think they do have 'purity of vision' and consider themselves entitled to inflict said vision on everyone else.
  3. SpookyFrank

    SpookyFrank King of the Rhodes

    Also what is this thread about?
  4. littleseb

    littleseb littleseb

    Bakunin's thoughts on 11 anarchists in Somalia.
  5. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model Starry Wisdom

    Anton you never did reply to this
  6. Anton

    Anton Banned Banned

    missed the question. im not defending the police or whatt they've done. i just don't think there is any alternative to having a police force.

    not a supporter of Labour. why should i defend them?

    if the point you are making is that the police are corrupt and violent, and that Labour sell out the working class. well, duh, i agree.
  7. Anton

    Anton Banned Banned

    i'm not angry about it.
    you cannot take criticism of your ideology, and thus, like everybody else, must paint the critic as a supporter of the other side.
    the stalinist and trots do the same. i say that trotskyism is somewhat pants, then i get accused of defending stalinism...
    how predictable. you so called anarchists are more or less the same.
    you cannot face the fact that this type of politcs has failed. it doesnt' present any real alternative at all.
    this is why there is an anarchist ghetto.

    i am not gogint o defend the labour party because saying anarchism doesn't have any answers doesn/t mean , oh, support labour.
  8. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model Starry Wisdom

    You said the Labour Party would do things for the better for the wc under Corbyn. Have you any actual examples of that happening?
  9. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model Starry Wisdom

    If you're not going to defend them why did you make the claim about them doing things for the wc under the current leadership?
  10. Anton

    Anton Banned Banned

    i think the other guy made that claim, not me.
  11. Anton

    Anton Banned Banned

    to put it another way,
    I want to see more Anarchist ideas, and for them to break out of the ghetto.
    i am trying to provoke. not support Labour.

    howevr, there are many people who will say, with justfication, better a little done with Labour, than nothing with ultra leftist groups.
    if you want to defend the NHS, how can anarchists do that without in effect supporting social democracy?

    someone earlier in this threat said about the 'inward looking anarchist ghetto', and nobody disagrees with it

    put it this way, -

    in my opinion, by standing in elections.
    likesfish likes this.
  12. Fozzie Bear

    Fozzie Bear Well-Known Member

    It's hard to know how serious you are about this given that you need to be prompted to answer questions made in good faith. (and your previous posts caricaturing anarchists as cider drinking punks).

    But for the sake of wider discussion, here goes:

    Standing in elections is not sufficient on its own to break out of the ghetto.

    Right now in 2019 your options would be:

    1. Stuntism a la Class War (which is at least a laugh)
    2. A paper candidate with rudimentary canvassing a la Socialist Alliance (and about the same votes as Option 1).
    3. A credible campaign which will put you in opposition to the pseudo radicalism of the Momentum who have a huge machine behind them.

    If you want to do any of these then that's fine, knock yourself out.

    I have been involved with option 3 in the past and it was really hard work even against New Labour, but ultimately very rewarding when taken as a small part of the wider work which was going on. This included years of knocking the door of every council estate in the ward, holding advice surgeries, organising social events and things for kids, etc.
    Pickman's model likes this.
  13. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model Starry Wisdom

    In your opinion, by not being anarchists :facepalm:
    M Testa likes this.
  14. Rob Ray

    Rob Ray Irony is well sad

    If you aren't angry then you certainly feel strongly enough to spend pages of internet forums telling anarchists how shit they are, either way my point remains - why do you care about trying to turn anarchists into electoralists?

    I'm not in the least bit worried about "criticism of my ideology" that seems to amount to little more than insults and appeals for us to try and be more like the SPGB, I'm just baffled as to what you think it's going to achieve, especially if you think we're just a pointless ghetto.

    Maybe rather than spend your time being annoying at us you could try going out door knocking for Labour round some of the estates they abandoned decades before, see if it works out for you.
  15. Anton

    Anton Banned Banned

    ok, reply to various posters above;

    it was not me that used the term 'inward looking anarchist ghetto'.
    this is what anarchism has become in the UK.

    i am not insulting you and saying 'how shit they are'.
    i just dont see what real concrete proposals you have that will take you out of the 'anarchist ghetto'.

    i am trying to address why you are in a 'ghetto'.

    If standing in elections is not the way out of the 'ghetto', then what is?
    whatever you're doing now is not taking you out of the ghetto.

    why do i care?
    because i know as well as anarchists that the entire Corbyn/SWP/Counterfire Trot Stalinoid left is fake, and Corbyn wont do shit when and if he gets in.
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2019
  16. Rob Ray

    Rob Ray Irony is well sad

    I directly quoted you saying "this is why there is an anarchist ghetto" Anton. And forgive me but from the above, you haven't the faintest clue what "anarchism has become in the U", you're just making a load of vaguely insulting statements tied to a weird seeming belief that if you just tell people to reverse their long-held viewpoints and call them names it'll magically occur.
  17. kenny g

    kenny g Wake up!

    This thread was started in a positive spirit. It has been completely derailed by a discussion in response to a fuckwit argument Anarchists can only be relevant if they are social democrats. Despair...
  18. Anton

    Anton Banned Banned

    option 3 is the only real one. this is the way to get out of the anarchist ghetto, i guess.
    but this type of work knocks ultra leftism out of you.
  19. Anton

    Anton Banned Banned

    i do know what its become, ie it is nowhere and has no influence on anything real.
  20. Rob Ray

    Rob Ray Irony is well sad

    Speaking of having no influence, I think I'm going to leave you to ... whatever this is. I wish you all the best in your crusade to specifically persuade anarchists to form political parties and what will presumably be your follow-up of turning Nigel Farage into a Europhile.
  21. nyxx

    nyxx Well-Known Member

    What the fuck does electioneering have to do with anarchist book fairs?
    Why is anyone even entertaining this Anton character's utterly random demands for attention?

    (Unless it's a case in point about disruption...)
    MadeInBedlam and kenny g like this.
  22. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model Starry Wisdom

    The only places you've taken us are nowhere and boredom
    M Testa likes this.
  23. littleseb

    littleseb littleseb

    and the ghetto and Somalia.
    Pickman's model likes this.
  24. Anton

    Anton Banned Banned

    you have an 'essentialist' definition of anarchism ie anarchists dont stand in elections and don't vote. we can have 'anti essentialist' understandings of anarchism which include voting, taking part in elections, and other things besides.

    i get the impression that some find my comments 'insults' (not meant to be), because we are not 'really' discussing politics at all. politics is about winning and making a change, not purist attachment to outmoded and dated dogmas.

    dogmas that have never worked and never will.

    if anarchists 'really'' represent the working class, then why not go to the working class and ask them to vote for you? there is no way the working class are going to 'get out on the streets' and fight for anarchism when they've never heard of it and known nothing about it at all.

    we are discussing a religious faith.
    a religious faith with its own dogmas
    a faith in the magicial power of the masses to magically make a revolution leading to a pure utopia without borders, police, states, family, gender etc.
    ie the kingdom of heaven on earth


    no, not really, but have no examples of anarchists doing anything much either. in the sense they will be slightly better than the tories, then ok corbyn. there are hardly many choices are there. its not as tho i can reject Corbyn and choose the non existent anarchist alternative.

    eloquent. didn't notice much positivity.
    i'll leave you to your ghetto, good luck
  25. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model Starry Wisdom

    Oh you do like your little lie. Anarchists can and indeed do stand in elections. But they do so as a stunt not as an attempt to gain power. Don't think anyone bar you has said anarchists represent anyone.
  26. Fozzie Bear

    Fozzie Bear Well-Known Member

    What’s stopping you doing this?
  27. likesfish

    likesfish an angry pretend soldier shooting at seagulls

    the problem for the left and the hard right (although in the case of the hard right it's not a problem for anyone else) anybody with any real desire to change things joins the two big parties and slimes their way into a position to effect change.
    everything else unless your picking a single issue is a hobby it doesn't matter how brilliant your insight is unless you get the public or a political party behind to back the idea. it doesn't really matter.
  28. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model Starry Wisdom

    knowledge of incipient humiliation
  29. Anton

    Anton Banned Banned

    me, or anarchists? or both? possibly.

    anarchists say a lot of things. most of it is BS.
    if you don't represent the working class, or you are not defending working class interests, then what are you doing?
    the same thng stopping the anarchist movement doing anything useful
  30. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model Starry Wisdom

    you like adding things in which you haven't previously said. nothing about defending working class interests in the post i replied to. moving the goalposts. you're a proper politician, dishonest from your toes to the top of your head

    when you start farting on about 'representing the working class' you're down that well-trodden path of one lot of people substituting themselves for the working class as a whole. which is the logical point of your "anarchist" political party

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