Disruption at Book Fairs 11

Discussion in 'protest, direct action and demos' started by PeterTCA, Dec 6, 2018.

  1. likesfish

    likesfish an angry pretend soldier shooting at seagulls

    Anarchists can have a purity of vision good for them.
    The Labour Party actually gets stuff done under Corbyn they will make things better for the working class.
    It won't be perfect but it will have a noticeable effect unlike the ideological pure who won't.
  2. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model Starry Wisdom

    Yeh I noticed things the Labour party has done

    Like demolishing council estates and replacing them with yuppie flats

    On auld corbo's watch

    How's that making things better?
    SpookyFrank and chilango like this.
  3. Anton

    Anton Banned Banned


    i don't think you're super naughty, i just don't think you will achieve anything apart from an anarchist inward looking ghetto.

    societal advances may come from below, but they only last if they institutionalised in law. that is the gain. if they are not instutionalised by the state, they are not really gains at all.

    i suppose a different way of forming the problem;
    if not elections, then what?
    what will take anarchism out of its ghetto?

    direct action?
    the mythological mass strike?
    the equally mythological revolution that never comes but when it does it always fails in some way.

    in reality, the people need a leader.
  4. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model Starry Wisdom

    Not me being super naughty
    Not anarchists
    You think people need the state because they're not good enough to do these things themselves, like you'd say we need police to stop crime

    We don't need leaders. Look where they've led us. Right into the shit.
  5. Anton

    Anton Banned Banned

    this is true to some extent. a lot of people will vote for Corbyn simply because there seems to be some actual change that can be made, even if it is not going to be utopia.

    ie out of power and ideologically pure, but in a ghetto
    attempt to take power, and get your hands dirty and compromise on many things.
    is there another way?

    But the Labour party will sell out the people once in power, and this is also somewhat predictable and happens every time. i'm sure if Corbyn gets in, Momentum will be disbanded and he wont be appearing at CPGB ML rallies etc. it'll then be meetings with ambassadors and businessmen.
  6. Anton

    Anton Banned Banned

    oh, ok.
    in some sense yes.
    ie it is all very well to be anti police, call for prison abolition, but in reality there needs to be a police force because there are real problems of law and order and crime etc. there need to be prisons because there are actual criminals that need to be locked up.

    I am not denying the class nature of the police force nor that the main criminals are the bankers/elite/bourgeosie/big business, and that the police can be accused racism, homophobia, police violence etc. I am aware of it.

    but if there isn't a police force and prison, then it is quite likely that criminal gangs will dominate and that vigilate actions and groups will become common. as such, yes, there needs to be a police force. i did not say police state, which is something else that statist communists have excelled at. but how to deal with acid attacks in london? are not these people criminals who should be locked up? if not, they vigilante actions will become common, people 'taking the law into their own hands'. this is not what anyone wants, surely?

    as for your comment about leaders leading us into the shit...
    well, yes thats true.
    i didn't say I needed a leader, nor that you need a leader, but that 'the people' need a leader. this is why they constantly create them, i guess.

    the views of Bakunin on 'invisible dictatorship' are very interesting and he has a point.
    i am not sure many anarchists hold this view now, at least not that i've met. but he understands the role of leadership:

    There must be anarchy, there must be – if the revolution is to become and remain alive, real, and powerful – the greatest possible awakening of all the local passions and aspirations; a tremendous awakening of spontaneous life everywhere. After the initial revolutionary victory the political revolutionaries, those advocates of brazen dictatorship, will try to squelch the popular passions. They appeal for order, for trust in, for submission to those who, in the course and in the name of the Revolution, seized and legalized their own dictatorial powers; this is how such political revolutionaries reconstitute the State. We, on the contrary, must awaken and foment all the dynamic passions of the people. We must bring forth anarchy, and in the midst of the popular tempest, we must be the invisible pilots guiding the Revolution, not by any kind of overt power but by the collective dictatorship of all our allies [members of the anarchist vanguard organization International Alliance of Social Democracy], a dictatorship without tricks, without official titles, without official rights, and therefore all the more powerful, as it does not carry the trappings of power. This is the only dictatorship I will accept, but in order to act, it must first be created, it must be prepared and organized in advance, for it will not come into being by itself, neither by discussions, nor by theoretical disputations, nor by mass propaganda meetings..."

    from Bakunin:
    Works of Mikhail Bakunin 1870
    dylanredefined likes this.
  7. Anton

    Anton Banned Banned

    fair enough, i would say tho, much of what you say sounds very marxist to me, it sounds a bit like Lukacs in History and Class consciousness, from what i remember of it.
    i'm not sure this is what you are implying, but i guess if there is a low level of class consciousness, then the working class are in a kind of 'false consciousness' regarding their situation. but once they see thru their false consciousness, they will rise up and become anarchist. something like that?
  8. Anton

    Anton Banned Banned

    for the record, i hope to see more anarchist bookfairs in the future, where actual different positions can be debated or held.

    i honestly think the anarchist movement has petered out because anarchism, as it has been in the UK anyway, cannot deal with the new situations.

    the Terf/trans issue which derailed the bookfairs were only a symptom of the lack of ideological clairty.
    most working class people probably dont care much one way or the other about it, because i doesn't affect them, or at any rate, it is not their main bread and butter issue. neither are the zapatistas.
  9. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model Starry Wisdom

    Your post is founded on false premises. You're saying that criminal gangs would prosper without cops. I say they prosper with them. Only you have in mind small time crooks and I have in mind the entire rotten structure of capitalism, of 'law and order', of work.
    rich! likes this.
  10. Anton

    Anton Banned Banned

    i mean big crooks and criminals too, Tony Blair etc.
    there will still be laws under socialism, just hopefully fairer ones,
    a lawless society is a nightmare.
    work is necessary but useful work, not brain dead crap which most work is.

    my problem of what you say is that it isnt practical, and in reality, cannot be realised. if so, how?
    it is utopia, a fantasy.
    it sounds a bit like Rousseau and the noble savage and 'man is born free' and humans are naturally good till society and its laws corrupted them. complete mythology.

    i am not defending cops, but they have a role in enforcing the law. there are real crimes, which are not just ecomomic in nature. ie acid attacks are not financial per se and it is not the police that have created this vicious problem.

    an example of somewhere with no law and no police is Somalia. nnot much of a utopia is it? without civic law, a return to religious law...
    likesfish likes this.
  11. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model Starry Wisdom

    Other examples are available
  12. Anton

    Anton Banned Banned

    such as?
    a realistic one that can actually be relevant to our situation now?

    why not an anarchist political party that stands in elections?
  13. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model Starry Wisdom

    Yeh your Somalia example is *so* relevant to the UK. That's what you're about, taking things out of - attacks by petty criminals to obtain the means to rob people, the acid attacks - out of their context and using that as an example of why the police are necessary, rather than the criminal nature of capitalism requiring the police and using the figleaf of anti-social crime to justify their existence. We all know the cops don't give a fuck about crime, or they'd investigate things like grooming gangs, mugging, burglaries, bike theft, without needing to be pushed. But a riot, woah, they're all over that. The Stephen Lawrence campaign, infiltrated by the police you say we need. The jean Charles de Menezes campaign, infiltrated by the police you say we need. The police aren't part of a solution, they're part of the problem. And if you need it explained to you again why there isn't an anarchist political party taking part in elections, look up anarchist in a dictionary
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2019
    Thimble Queen likes this.
  14. Anton

    Anton Banned Banned

    ive heard all this and its easy to say. but this doesnt prove that we dont need law or police or that anarchists have any real thing to say. it just shows the police have abused their power. dont try and make out im a pro police guy. im not. i just dont see prison abolition etc as realistic or having much support.

    the fact is, even petty crimes need to be dealt with. just poinying to abuses doesnt prove your point. how to deal with a real case of acid attack? what does anarchism say to this problem? nothing. its the fault of capitalism! easy to say.

    anarchism is dying because it doesnt have real solutions to the problems of our time.
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2019
    dylanredefined likes this.
  15. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model Starry Wisdom

    The police refuse to deal with whole swathes of crime. Yet you insist we need them to deal with these crimes they refuse to deal with. Do you not see this as a flaw in your argument? This leads me to treat your claim about anarchism with the gravity it merits, ie none
  16. M Testa

    M Testa Well-Known Member

    in Beating The Fascists there is a clear explanation that because RA were fairly small, were not bothered by recruiting and were tight as a group then infiltration thru public meetings/demos etc was avoided. but I assume RA folk on here will be able to explain better.
  17. Anton

    Anton Banned Banned

    you have nothing to say to the many working class people living on council estates whose lives are blighted by crime. that is why they dont support you, i guess. i dont deny police abuse but it points to the need to reform the police, to make it actually do what its supposed to do, rather than abolish the police. you cannot really deal with the problem, as i see it, and instead do the usual anarcho 'hate the police' thing and try and make out i'm supporting the unsupportable. hardly. the problem is this - please answer it:

    How would anarchists deal with petty crime, with violent crime, rape etc? that is what i want to know.

    if you can't answer it, then you dont' have anything to go to the working class with, really, do you?

    this is why i think its better for anarchists to stand in elections. open politics. these secretive groups can be infiltrated by anyone and anyone can be lefter than left, hate the police while working for them.

    i do realise tho that the dictionary word anarchist tends to mean a tendency that rejects elections and parliamentarianism. but as anti essentialist theory has shown, the dictionary definition or essence of a 'man' or of a 'woman' is not fixed. likewise, the dictionary definition of anarchism is not fixed, and just as once people thought that a biological man couldn't identify as a woman, but now they can and it is accepted. so also, anarchism and standing in elections are not mutually exclusive, and it may be accepted in the future.

    but i admit the word anarchism is problematic. perhaps the term ' a Libertarian Socialist Party' would be better.
    maybe that is the way forward for anarchists.
  18. Serge Forward

    Serge Forward Well-Known Member

    The opposite of class consciousness is not "false consciousness" as some Marxists would have it. It's simply lack of class consciousness, de-politicisation, demoralisation, lack of class unity, a level of social, political and economic passivity, the common wish to "rise above ones class" rather than the aim of rising with your class. Standing in elections counters none of this but only contributes to greater passivity.
  19. Anton

    Anton Banned Banned

    why not both? elections which spread class consciousness? such as the Class War attempt last time. ( good idea, but they didn't take it seriously themselves imo). are they mutually exclusive?
  20. Serge Forward

    Serge Forward Well-Known Member

    Of course, the Anarchist movement already has its long established parliamentary wing... the SPGB innit :rolleyes:
  21. Anton

    Anton Banned Banned

    ha! i thought they were true marxists, the only true ones in existence, who admonished the bolsheviks for not waiting for the right time...
    but actually, if the SPGB could get a better presentation, campaign seriously, distinguish themselves from Corbynistas and various Trot/Stalino electoral groups, it could be something.

    i do actually hope to see anarchist bookfairs return to London, and even tho i don't know them, i have mostly praise for the organisers.
    why can't TERF and Trans coexist, or have their different opinions without aggro?
    why can't vegans coexist with vegetarians without beef? (or eggs)
    why did the International Communist Current (ICC) never have a stall inside the bookfair, and why were Catholic Worker always refused a stall inside the bookfair? where else to buy Zapatista coffee?

    imagine an Anarchist MP in the houses of parliament together with a squatting movement outside of parliament?
    it would also be the way to overturn the system from within.
    Tariq Ali can then be nominated to the house of lords, where he belongs.
    Oxbridge Callinicos, and all the other fake left aristocrats and wannabe Lenins can also go to the house of lords.
  22. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model Starry Wisdom

    Tell you what, you answer my question and then I'll answer yours
  23. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model Starry Wisdom

    the only person here who has talked about hating the police is you. You ask about people on council estates afflicted by crime. You've clearly missed or are utterly ignorant of campaigns like class war's 'no muggers no burglars' propaganda. Anarchists tho aren't some radical a team leaping in, if you can find them, to solve everyone's problems. Anarchism isn't, despite your claims, adherence to the likes of bakunin or malatesta. What might work on, say, an estate in Oxford in 1995 won't necessarily work on an estate in, say, East ham in 2019. My answer to your question would be that supporting whatever empowered the residents to resolve their problem, coupled with the auld adage that the best way to destroy an enemy is to turn them into a friend. But as far as I'm concerned the reason you get anti-social scum is because the way society is currently organised tends towards their production. You get anti-social wankers in every class, who fall for the greed is good, no such thing as society shite. Most of them I'm sure are amenable to persuasion
    Thimble Queen and TopCat like this.
  24. andysays

    andysays Defiantly non-premium member

    *insert meme of Bakunin saying "I ain't getting in no plane, fool" here*
  25. littleseb

    littleseb littleseb

    no it isn't. Somaliland / Hargeisa is a safe and happening place to be.
    Pickman's model likes this.
  26. littleseb

    littleseb littleseb

    Somalia is always portrayed as the worst and most lawless place on earth. Pisses me off. A bit of research shows that there are perfectly safe places with peace loving people who have been working very hard to make their home safe and peaceful under very difficult circumstances. Just not right to deny them their achievements and make Somalia look like a country inhabited by savages.
  27. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model Starry Wisdom

    they portray an image of being violent and savage to keep out ill-wishers like anton
  28. littleseb

    littleseb littleseb

    to spread cheap propaganda to make people feel better about themselves and the system they are living in.
    Pickman's model likes this.
  29. M Testa

    M Testa Well-Known Member

    hypothetical questions like 'what would anarchists do about policing in the future?' are irrelevant. there is not going to be an anarchist revolution any time soon so we have to focus on NOW. anti-fascist or rather anti-far right activities, community issues, work place struggles etc., as well as discussing how economics affect us, how new govt legislation affects the working class, Brexit, austerity etc ... this is relevant political activity.
  30. Fozzie Bear

    Fozzie Bear Well-Known Member

    Perhaps Anton can explain how his Anarchist Party Standing In Elections will reduce crime in working class areas?
    Pickman's model likes this.

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