Dismissal due to Incompetence

[scifisam]

Really!? I heard exactly the opposite, that in the public sector, getting fired is alomst impossible so long as you turn up. What is your experience Guinnevere?

Nope. I got fired (from teaching) for being sick (and I really was sick - they never disputed that).

 

[stretchy18]

Do you mean, sleeping with a relative sick, or ill?

 

[equationgirl]

I think they mean ill.

 

[Zeppo]

Agree wth others - not being sacked in the public sector is a myth.

I work in this sector and have seen people sacked - not for incompetence. Just sacked as part of a general cuts programme. At least another 500 have been given the green light to go - under a voluntary early retirement scheme.

Senior managers just waking up to the fact "where are all teh people with skills..oh we just let them go".

There are procedures to get rid of staff who are incompetent - but they have to be given a chance to improve issues.

Does not appear to hold for senior managers' incompetence - no doubt someone will tell me I am wrong. Usually there is a sideways move, promotion or a big hand out for the seniors.

 

[equationgirl]

Does not appear to hold for senior managers' incompetence - no doubt someone will tell me I am wrong. Usually there is a sideways move, promotion or a big hand out for the seniors.

Oh yes, I've seen this on numerous occasions, unfortunately.

 

[Gmart]

Oh yes, I've seen this on numerous occasions, unfortunately.

I remember this from my days in the public sector. The middle management just seemed to spend most of their time trying to justify their over-paid (and often useless) jobs, while getting in the way of me actually working at the front line!

Of course it is always the indians that get fired as they're easier to get rid of.

Thus the problem we have with too many chiefs and not enough indians!

 

[equationgirl]

Yes, one annual reports of a university I used to work for made very interesting reading

 

[ViolentPanda]

I was talking to a businessman recently, and he was pointing out how difficult it is to fire people for incompetence especially in the public sector! One might feasibly argue for the right to do this FOR business.

That's really not the case, although I've heard the private sector trying to build one (one that's non-unionised, natch) for the last three decades.
If you're incompetent, i.e. not fulfilling the contracted obligations inherent to your position, then it's a fairly easy process to either dismiss someone during their probationary period (generally 1 year long in the public sector), or to use the misconduct procedures in tandem with performance reviews to give the person the requisite number of required warnings and then dismiss them.

However, how does one do this without endangering the fair/unfair dismissal issue? For that I am quite stumped. Sorry! Some kind of mandatory payment to cover a certain period, so that retraining can occur? Difficult, but this nettle needs to be grasped in the interests of competitiveness, jobs etc. Whatever the solution, the Adult education service and the Open Uni etc can play a strong part in this retraining.

Has anyone else noticed this? Is there someone working in your office who should be fired due to his inability to do the job as well as he should? Under what criteria is "Unfair Dismissal" defined?

Does business have the right to just fire someone because they are not good enough?

The Law

Dismissing Teachers

It seems to do with the perception of what constitutes incompetence.

You should bear in mind that in any public sector employment that hasn't been completely swamped by managerialism, most employees (even those right up the foodchain) will be wary of opening the Pandora's Box of what constitutes "incompetence", as the definition you use today to get rid of the personality-free, hygiene-challenged employee today may be taken as a precedent and manipulated to get rid of the well-scrubbed affable and properly-performing employee tomorrow.

 

[scifisam]

I think they mean ill.

Yup!

 

[ViolentPanda]

If I owned a business and I had no further use for an employee, I would feel that i should be able to give him notice to leave without fear of reprisal. It should be my right as a business man.

The positions of employees and employers are both covered by UK employment legislation, as a businessman you (and your employees) have no rights other than those contained within that legislation.

 

[Geri]

What if the person is incompetent due to mental health issues? Or if they try their best but they are simply not up to the job because they genuinely can't understand what they are doing? We have someone at work like this, and my boss told me they are going to offer her 6 months money to leave, but I don't think she will take it as I don't think she will get another job elsewhere.

 

[Gmart]

What if the person is incompetent due to mental health issues? Or if they try thier best but they are simply not up to the job because they genuinely can't understand what they are doing? We have someone at work like this, and my boss told me they are going to offer her 6 months money to leave, but I don't think she will take it as I don't think she will get another job elsewhere.

Can your boss not dismiss her for incompetence?

 

[Geri]

Can your boss not dismiss her for incompetence?

No, because she has complained about him to personnel and says he is bullying her, so she's got the upper hand.

 

[DJWrongspeed]

Where I work in the NHS it does seem impossible to get the sack. You'd virtually have to watch porn for 24hrs a day. This is probably different in other sectors. What I find most annoying, from personal experience, is the whole recruitment policy whereby internal candidates get 1st preference in advertised positions. How is that good for the organisation?

 

[spanglechick]

firstly, the link in the op regarding teaching is american, and has only some similarities with the uk system.

basically, an incompetant teacher will quite often not get through their pgce, or if they do, may not pass their NQT year. teachers who become incompetant thereafter will presumably be picked up through the annual performance mgt system. A formal lesson observation will take place, and a target will be set for exam performance. If the lesson is deemed unsatisfactory, or the exam class underperforms, then the management have to put appropriate support / training etc in place to help the teacher achieve competence.

If they fail to respond to the support put in place, then observations will be stepped up and more support put in place, until what's most likely is that they get fed up with all the scrutiny and leave. If they don't leave, it is true that it can be hard to get rid.

However, a lot of incidences of incompetance would fall under the umbrella of gross misconduct. This would include things like never marking books, not teaching the whole of a syllabus etc. It's much easier getting rid of teachers for gross misconduct or conduct unbecoming.

if you are fired for gross misconduct / conduct unbecoming, you'll almost certainly lose your membership of the general teaching council, and so will not be allowed to teach again - rather like a doctor being struck off.

 

[Gavin Bl]

the whole recruitment policy whereby internal candidates get 1st preference in advertised positions. How is that good for the organisation?

it gives staff a route for progression, creating loyalty and effort from the more aspirant and/or competent.

It really sucks when there are plenty of people in a department who can do the vacant role, but someone else is brought in from outside. Very bad for morale.

I agree its not a panacea though.

 

[The Pious Pawn]

Were i work they make all the idiots with no skills managers !you only get sacked for violence it seems .

 

[Cloo]

I would say that being a tosser is a great reason for sacking someone. Why would I want to employ a tosser?

Certainly a few people at my employers have been fired for being tossers - ie, for complaints about bullying from their teams.

I think it's not too hard to fire people for 'incompetence' in posts that are quite target based. I don't think anyone's been fired for not reaching targets per se at my workplace, but I know one or two sales/marketing people have been told their employment won't continue after their probation period, because they weren't getting the figures required.

 

[snadge]

I used to work in a factory where ALL the welders had to do a welding test piece every six months. (Government regulation.)
If the test piece failed an x-ray check, they would unless there was another type of job vacancy be given the sack.

garbage, Lloyds insurance dictates every three years for an asme IX6G test, companies are also not allowed to sack a welder for failing the test after they have been employed longer than 2 years, retraining is usually taken on within the company or at an external coding station.

Put it this way a catastrophic failure would have been likely to kill or very badly injure anyone in the vicinity.

that goes with anything that is welded really....