Discussion: No Borders and No Borders Camp in Calais 2009

[durruti02]

(Bit of discussion started over on the other forum which was started as a practical thread so donlt want to disrupt.)

So No Borders and the camp in calais? Personally i think it is really really daft to priorotise this issue at the current time .. as Moon23 says 'No Borders' is virtually a motto of neo liberalism, as for them it means cheap labour, yet a siginificant % of the @movement seem to have adopted No bOrders themselves.

Surely the slogan we need in this period is workers control or people power ..

No Borders seems to concentrate on asylum .. see http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2009/06/433142.html .. as series of tragic stories but stories people in this country of many differrent backgrouds will ask why the @ movement is prioritises these people and not their issues


yet the title 'No Borders' confuses asylum with economic migration

 

[Pickman's model]

rename this thread to include the word 'discussion'

 

[FridgeMagnet]

"No Borders" is absolutely not a tenet of neo-liberalism. If you don't have borders you can't threaten to throw people out if they get bolshy.

 

[durruti02]

"No Borders is a network of groups struggling for the freedom of movement for all and an end to all migration controls. We call for a radical movement against the system of control, dividing us into citizens and non-citizens.
We demand the end of the border regime for everyone, including ourselves, to enable us to live another way, without fear, racism and nationalism." http://noborders.org.uk/

this statement is meaningless and worse .. it shows no idea about how power works in society, it seperates citizenship off from any understanding of why some are citizens and some are not, from its basis in capitalism and economics .. where do borders come from? why does capitalism have them? why campaign against borders seperately from other issues?

above all it seems to put individual rights before the rights of communities .. i would suggest it is a very m/c ideology where indeed the righst of an individual to move migrate are seen as more important than the rights of communities and unions to organise and have power. i would also suggest it is a very liberal moralistic ideology, that they are more concerned over the life and rights of the afghani asylum seekers ( which i do not doubt is bleak) than the rights and lives of people in this country

what is particularly tragic is the supporters of No Borders appear unaware or indifferrent to how their ideology/slogan is seen in the w/c.

 

[durruti02]

"No Borders" is absolutely not a tenet of neo-liberalism. If you don't have borders you can't threaten to throw people out if they get bolshy.

yes it is .. what is neo liberalism then? but still i get your point and it is a good point and one i have made many times before .. that there are NO borders for the neo liberals but when they want to import cheap labour BUT borders ARE used to discipline and threatern us.

and so yes becuase of that on one tiny level it would be correct to argue for no borders .. but now? the downsides in the arguement blow away any good that can be had .. the prirority is to argue for empowering our communities

 

[durruti02]

Why a protest camp in Calais?

While Europe is tightening its border controls to the outside of Europe, and especially to Northern Africa, one of its internal borders is often overseen. Many migrants who come to Europe aim to reach the United Kingdom, but after the closing down of the centre in Sangatte/Calais, people are forced to sleep rough in the woods around the harbour, getting pushed around and often finally sent back to Paris where they are forced to sleep rough in their hundreds.

Furthermore the UK Border serves as a mechanism of internal control and filtering in Europe. By pushing the UK border onto French territory, the British government has made it impossible for many people to claim asylum in the UK and forced those that do try into the hands of people smugglers. This situation can only be changed when we start a public discourse about the UK Border regime and the humanitarian situation of the people who try to reach the UK from France.

The Border regime can be only understood in its political and economic context, i.e. the exploitation of cheap work from migrants. Therefore we think that the struggle for equal rights for migrant workers and the struggle against the European detention and asylum system are closely connected. We also believe that we need to intensify the transnational cooperation between initiatives made by people on both sides of the border who find the current situation unbearable." http://london.noborders.org.uk/calais2009

this is from London No Borders and is a bit more political .. but contradictory .. it claims to understand borders are about the " .. the exploitation of cheap work from migrants." absolutley, but then thinks that the solution is to argue for no borders! no the solution is to put all outr effort into stopping cheap labour employers in the UK, whether cleaners ISS, or in agriculture or wherever. There is an utter failure to recognise that countries like Sweden that have little unregulated work there is little inmigration, border or not, and those migrants who are there have much better wages and conditions than in the UK.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Have there not been loads of arrests connected with this action?

 

[durruti02]

" .. we must do all we can to continue to fight the border regimes that are causing so much suffering." from calaisnoborder http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2009/06/433089.html?c=on#c226694

it is not borders that cause sufferring .. it is capitalism ..

 

[jæd]

" .. we must do all we can to continue to fight the border regimes that are causing so much suffering." from calaisnoborder http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2009/06/433089.html?c=on#c226694

it is not borders that cause sufferring .. it is capitalism ..

Strange how you don't get people trying to cross the border to North Korea, or fleets of immigrants to Cuba. And I don't recall the USSR having a problem with illegals...

 

[jonH]

if there weren't any borders would the british police be able to arrest a frenchman on the streets of calais, could i claim jsa in la, would the nhs send an ambulance to nemhetrkovks?

 

[moon23]

The migrant borders issue is a neo-liberal complex, those with capital are free to bring in cheap labour without borders, that degrades local working conditions. The response by some parties on the centre left has been nationalistic protectionism, for instance in France. Even Brown's 'british jobs for british workers' line echoes this nationalistic protectionist sentiment. In turn the BNP exploit this complex for thier own facist ends. The state sets caveats on people that denies individual free movement and promotes corporate movement of peoples through the new PBS immigration system. One of the underlying problem is the lack of international enforcement for working practices. We cant retreat into a nationalistic defense of the standards we have one instead we need to build international solidarity and argue in the interests of workers. No Borders have high ideals but when workers see the cheap migrant labour as the problem rather than the system they will achieve little.

 

[tbaldwin]

if there weren't any borders would the british police be able to arrest a frenchman on the streets of calais, could i claim jsa in la, would the nhs send an ambulance to nemhetrkovks?

Game set and match to this poster.

How could you organise anything without national states,health services,welfare, pensions etc......



I reckon the no borders lot should all go to Somalia to see what happens when the state falls apart...

 

[LLETSA]

Strange how you don't get people trying to cross the border to North Korea, or fleets of immigrants to Cuba. And I don't recall the USSR having a problem with illegals...

What I like about these boards is the rampant originality.

 

[LLETSA]

Game set and match to this poster.

How could you organise anything without national states,health services,welfare, pensions etc......



I reckon the no borders lot should all go to Somalia to see what happens when the state falls apart...

Good point.

And when you think about the way the world seems to be going, borders are going to be reinforced if anything.

 

[jonH]

Let's just demand free passports and cheaper easier visas

 

[moon23]

Strange how you don't get people trying to cross the border to North Korea, or fleets of immigrants to Cuba. And I don't recall the USSR having a problem with illegals...

States that oppressive are more worried about keeping people in

 

[moon23]

Game set and match to this poster.

How could you organise anything without national states,health services,welfare, pensions etc......



I reckon the no borders lot should all go to Somalia to see what happens when the state falls apart...

The Nation state is just one level of collective organisation. It would be possible to have different types of collective organisation owned and controlled by workers within an international framework.

In a way this is allready happening to some limited extent with devolution within the wider EU framework.

 

[moon23]

Good point.

And when you think about the way the world seems to be going, borders are going to be reinforced if anything.

If we retreat into defensive protectionism of our patches there will be increasing amounts of conflicts. The only solution is to work international to limit the destructive aspects of global capitalism but reforming brining democratic reform and collective ownership to corporate entities. These can then exist within an international legal framework.

 

[LLETSA]

If we retreat into defensive protectionism of our patches there will be increasing amounts of conflicts. The only solution is to work international to limit the destructive aspects of global capitalism but reforming brining democratic reform and collective ownership to corporate entities. These can then exist within an international legal framework.

What 'we' decide to do is going to have little, if anything, to do with it.

 

[moon23]

What 'we' decide to do is going to have little, if anything, to do with it.

Depends on how many of us there are but yea bascially we are going to get pwned by states fighting it out for limited resources and no amount of twitter revolutions will save us.

 

[LLETSA]

I've never understood the relevance of the much made point that capital knows no borders so why should workers have to put up with them? After all, it isn't as if workers in the West are going to follow the migration of jobs to the east, or anywhere else, for obvious reasons. And most workers outside the West aren't going to start travelling anyhere and everywhere just because they can. They're intelligent enough to know that this would lead to chaos.

So why do borders matter?

 

[jonH]

So why do borders matter?

borders tell us where sovereighty ends

 

[LLETSA]

borders tell us where sovereighty ends

So?

 

[jonH]

the best ones are coastlines and high mountain ranges, deserts aren't bad nor are big rivers

 

[purplex]

Capitalism absolutely needs an influx of cheap labour to exploit in order to maximize profits.
Capitalists trade worker against cheap worker to maximize profits.
Capitalists use cheap imported labour to keep incumbent workforce on edge and end up being a cause of restraint of workers rights.
Mass immigration causes protectionism and xenophobia, which degrades our society. It needs to be controlled at both a European and a national level. I personally have no problem taking in people fleeing tyranny.
Within Europe open borders exist for European citizens.
Just my views for what they are worth.

 

[likesfish]

half the problem from my viewpoint is not the mass immigration form eastern Europe.
The complete failure to plan or provide for a mass influx
5000 expected
500000turn up of course thats going to cause problems

 

[FridgeMagnet]

yes it is .. what is neo liberalism then? but still i get your point and it is a good point and one i have made many times before .. that there are NO borders for the neo liberals but when they want to import cheap labour BUT borders ARE used to discipline and threatern us.

and so yes becuase of that on one tiny level it would be correct to argue for no borders .. but now? the downsides in the arguement blow away any good that can be had .. the prirority is to argue for empowering our communities

I'm not going to get into another "immigration" thing here because I've done it before and it never goes anywhere, but you can't say that neo-liberalism simultaneously supports "no borders" but then uses borders.

It needs borders to demarcate groups of people that can be treated differently. The "no borders" is a threat to neo-liberalism (though not a big threat politically because they've got their PR sewn up on that basis) because it denies them the opportunity to designate certain people as having fewer rights, which is passed down to enable attacks on and division of workers.

It's not "no borders", it's "the borders we want". "We" not being us.

 

[durruti02]

The migrant borders issue is a neo-liberal complex, those with capital are free to bring in cheap labour without borders, that degrades local working conditions. The response by some parties on the centre left has been nationalistic protectionism, for instance in France. Even Brown's 'british jobs for british workers' line echoes this nationalistic protectionist sentiment. In turn the BNP exploit this complex for thier own facist ends. The state sets caveats on people that denies individual free movement and promotes corporate movement of peoples through the new PBS immigration system. One of the underlying problem is the lack of international enforcement for working practices. We cant retreat into a nationalistic defense of the standards we have one instead we need to build international solidarity and argue in the interests of workers. No Borders have high ideals but when workers see the cheap migrant labour as the problem rather than the system they will achieve little.

yes

 

[durruti02]

one of the thngs that infuriate me about NB is i do not see any process for change .. it appears to be just another m/c shouty campaign. who are they trying to influence? the UK state? LOL!! UKINC is both allowing the neo libs all the cheap labour they want AND use immigration politically .. why should they listen to a bunch of @s??

if you have a campaign it must have a road map for change ( to use the jargon) .. i do not see oner with NB

whereas i argue for localism, for the rights of people on a street or an estate to say who should be housed, for the power of union shops to demand that the employer employs locally (or not) and while i understand the arguement that this, building politically from the base, has the attatched dangers of xenophobia, at least it ALSO has a potential of having in the future a strong w/c that can fight racism and nationalism and destroy xenophobia and fascism ..

the NB ideology does nothing well, it builds nothing, offers no real solidairty to migrants ( see the posts where they say migrants at Calais are getting their hopes up that the camp will help them when it can and will not), and is an open goal for the far right

 

[durruti02]

Capitalism absolutely needs an influx of cheap labour to exploit in order to maximize profits.
Capitalists trade worker against cheap worker to maximize profits.
Capitalists use cheap imported labour to keep incumbent workforce on edge and end up being a cause of restraint of workers rights.
Mass immigration causes protectionism and xenophobia, which degrades our society. It needs to be controlled at both a European and a national level. I personally have no problem taking in people fleeing tyranny.
Within Europe open borders exist for European citizens.
Just my views for what they are worth.

yes