disability benefits reforms: starting the fightback!

[tobyjug]

.
Looks like you and Tobyjug as Internet campaigners have proved incapable of reading properly.

You still seem to thick to understand your GP cannot sign you onto Incapacity Benefit a benefits official does it. It isn't rocket science. One cannot get Incapacity Benefit just on your GPs say so.

 

[ViolentPanda]

You will no doubt have noted by now that YES in fact there are different rates of IB. And possibly you will also note that IB is paid to people assesed or TREATED as incapable of work.

Did you bother to read what "treated as incapable of work actually means?"

Here you go:

You are treated as incapable of work if you:

• 
  are in hospital
  
  are under medical observation because you are a carrier of an infectious disease or have been in contact with an infectious disease and you have been given a certificate, issued by the Environmental Health Medical Officer, which excludes you from work
  
  receive certain regular weekly medical treatments. These include peritoneal or haemodialysis, parenteral nutrition, parenteral chemotherapy or radiotherapy
  are pregnant and are unable to work because it is dangerous to you or your baby's health
  
  are pregnant and cannot get maternity allowance or statutory maternity pay.
  
  If this applies you are considered incapable of work from 6 weeks before your baby is born to 2 weeks after the baby's birth.

In other words, "special rules".

Best to read links properly and make sure you're not making yourself look a twat, eh balders?

Looks like you and Tobyjug as Internet campaigners have proved incapable of reading properly.

1) "Internet campaigners"? Another of your soapy little pops, eh?
My activism is mostly in the real world, on my own time. Sniping attacks from the likes of you who have/had a "professional" interest in IB notwithstanding.
2) Pot, kettle, sooty arse. You obviously didn't bother to read that link properly before chiming in your half-pence worth (not that you ever appear to bother to read anything properly before sounding off).


Let me guess, now you've made yourself look stupid again, you'll fall back on calling me names?

 

[tobyjug]

?
My activism is mostly in the real world, on my own time. Sniping attacks from the likes of you who have/had a "professional" interest in IB notwithstanding.

Snap. I have a feeling tbaldwin is on a fishing trip to write an all incapacity benefit claimants are scroungers in one of the gutter newspapers.
Anyone who has personal experience of claiming Incapacity Benefit knows that very little if any notice is taken of anything one GP writes or states when it comes to assessing the claim.
Doctors signing people onto Incapacity Benefit is the type of gutter press lies that makes me really angry.

 

[ViolentPanda]

You will no doubt have noted by now that YES in fact there are different rates of IB.

Short-term and long-term, as I've said (you're still having comprehension problems, obviously), so I'll presume you're talking about the split short-term rate.

So tell me, oh wise one:

Who gets paid short-term lower rate?

I know who and I know why, do you?

If you do you'll know why I didn't count it, only short-term higher rate and long-term.

If you don't know then you shouldn't have anything to do with people claiming the benefit as you'll have proved yourself to be dangerously stupid.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Snap. I have a feeling tbaldwin is on a fishing trip to write an all incapacity benefit claimants are scroungers in one of the gutter newspapers.
Anyone who has personal experience of claiming Incapacity Benefit knows that very little if any notice is taken of anything one GP writes or states when it comes to assessing the claim.
Doctors signing people onto Incapacity Benefit is the type of gutter press lies that makes me really angry.

There were several cases before the commissioners in 2003 and 2004 where it was admitted before the court that GP statements are treated as biased evidence in favour of the claimant, and are only heeded insofar as they confirm an examining medical practioners' report (rather than vice versa).
To contend that a GP can "sign off" somebody onto long-term Incapacity Benefit is, to put it bluntly, stupid, wrong and ignorant.

 

[tobyjug]

To contend that a GP can "sign off" somebody onto long-term Incapacity Benefit is, to put it bluntly, stupid, wrong and ignorant.

and a total lie as well.

 

[tbaldwin]

Let me guess, now you've made yourself look stupid again, you'll fall back on calling me names?

What like stuck up twat?.
Your postings on this have got more and more desperate. Your crocodile tears for the sick and disabled really dont impress me.
You started off by insisting that people on IB had to be assesed by govt agencies when challenged on that you backtracked to talk about SPECIAL RULES. You also denied there were different rates of IB before later admitting that there were in fact different rates.
Your knowledge of IB and other disability benefits is limited by your experience.
The benefits system as ive argued consistently is complex and inconsistent but NL are not leading a charge to get people genuinelly incapable of work off benefits as some people like to pretend.

 

[tobyjug]

NL are not leading a charge to get people genuinelly incapable of work off benefits as some people like to pretend.

I am afraid they are, one cannot set targets as they have done, and also care about sick and disabled people.
They have the same Arbeit Macht Frei mentality that built concentration camps.

 

[aylee]

OK, I'll try to resolve this argument. The law is as follows.

You qualify for incapacity benefit by being "incapable of work". Some people are deemed to be incapable of work (eg those who are being investigated as being potential carriers of infectious diseases) but most have to satisfy either the "own occupation test" or the "personal capability assessment".

The OOT applies only for the first 28 weeks of incapacity and when you have a "regular occupation" at the time that you become incapacitated. You must demonstrate that you cannot follow your "regular occupation". This is done by self-certifying for the first seven days, after which you must get your GP to issue you with a Med 3 or Med 5 certificate as appropriate which confirms that you have been advised to refrain from work.

From the 28 week period, the PCA applies. That means that at some point thereafter, you will be called in for an examination by a doctor nominated by the Benefits Agency. Until then, provided that you keep supplying evidence from your GP, you will be treated as continuing to be capable of work.

The PCA requires you to complete a questionnaire about how your illness or disability affects your bodily and mental functions in various ways. You score "points" according to the severity on the effect of various functions. They seek evidence from your GP and you can also submit evidence from other treating doctors. The BA doctor will perform functional assessments and make recommendations as to what the findings of the BA decision maker should be about the points that you score. You need 15 points from physical function categories, 10 from mental function categories or 15 from a combination of the two to pass the PCA.

Incapacity benefit is paid at a lower 'short-term' rate for 28 weeks, and then the higher 'long-term' rate. You can't get incapacity benefit if you're entitled to statutory sick pay.

Naturally, the above is only a very short summary, but hopefully it will resolve the argument about the extent to which GPs are involved. In short: GPs CAN 'sign people off' which enables them to receive ICB initially, but between 6 and 12 months after your become incapable of work it is inevitable that you will be examined by the BA doctor and then your GP's view is only one piece of evidence which will be taken into account in deciding whether you get incapacity benefit.

 

[ViolentPanda]

What like stuck up twat?.
Your postings on this have got more and more desperate. Your crocodile tears for the sick and disabled really dont impress me.

Guess what? I don't have crocodile tears and I don't give a fuck about impressing you. You're so far below my radar in terms of concern that you frankly don't register.

You started off by insisting that people on IB had to be assesed by govt agencies when challenged on that you backtracked to talk about SPECIAL RULES. You also denied there were different rates of IB before later admitting that there were in fact different rates.

It's odd how you're the only person on this thread who read my posts that way. Everyone else appears to know what I was talking about except you. Surprise surprise.

Your knowledge of IB and other disability benefits is limited by your experience.

Everybody has their knowledge limited by their experience you fucking nincompoop.

The benefits system as ive argued consistently is complex and inconsistent but NL are not leading a charge to get people genuinelly incapable of work off benefits as some people like to pretend.

You wriggling balders, and it isn't a pretty sight.
Anyway, you've made a contention, now prove it.

 

[ViolentPanda]

In short: GPs CAN 'sign people off' which enables them to receive ICB initially, but between 6 and 12 months after your become incapable of work it is inevitable that you will be examined by the BA doctor and then your GP's view is only one piece of evidence which will be taken into account in deciding whether you get incapacity benefit.

Which is exactly what tobyjug and I have stated over and again: A GP can only sanction you in the short term.

 

[tbaldwin]

Which is exactly what tobyjug and I have stated over and again: A GP can only sanction you in the short term.

So to recap Doctors are signing 100s of thousands of people off for IB and there are different rates of IB and DLA.

Or VPs alternative tbaldwin and blair went shooting the disabled at the weekend. New Labour are going to bring in gas chambers for people with depression and Anne Widdecombe wasnt so bad after all. Eventhough when VP worked with her there was abit of a fuss about chaining pregant women prisoners or some other NL inspired drivel.

 

[ViolentPanda]

So to recap Doctors are signing 100s of thousands of people off for IB and there are different rates of IB and DLA.

No, to recap, just as tobyjug and I have said all through this thread GPs can only sign people off short-term. They have to be checked by a benfits agency dr to get long-term IB, something you disputed.
YOU WERE WRONG.

Or VPs alternative tbaldwin and blair went shooting the disabled at the weekend. New Labour are going to bring in gas chambers for people with depression and Anne Widdecombe wasnt so bad after all. Eventhough when VP worked with her there was abit of a fuss about chaining pregant women prisoners or some other NL inspired drivel.

Like I said, when you're wrong (which is often) you start your name-calling and smearing. Why aren't I surprised you appear to believe in "guilt by association"?

Says it all about the kind of person you are, really.

 

[tobyjug]

Which is exactly what tobyjug and I have stated over and again: A GP can only sanction you in the short term.

A fact which tbaldwin seems too bloody thick to comprehend.

 

[tobyjug]

So to recap Doctors are signing 100s of thousands of people off for IB

No they aren't because they can't. They have to fill a form out and send it to an adjudication officer even for short term benefits beyond statutory sick pay.
No GP can sign a form that gets anyone Incapacity Benefit. Only an official can approve IB payments.

 

[tbaldwin]

No, to recap, just as tobyjug and I have said all through this thread GPs can only sign people off short-term. They have to be checked by a benfits agency dr to get long-term IB, something you disputed.
YOU WERE WRONG.

.

Its great your so sure of yourself and your WRONG.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Its great your so sure of yourself and your WRONG.

Same could be said of you, soft lad.

Thing is that aylee's post backs up what me and tobes have been saying all along, and shows your interpretation to be an incorrect load of horse turd. However much you wriggle that won't change.

 

[tbaldwin]

OK, I'll try to resolve this argument. The law is as follows.

You qualify for incapacity benefit by being "incapable of work". Some people are deemed to be incapable of work (eg those who are being investigated as being potential carriers of infectious diseases) but most have to satisfy either the "own occupation test" or the "personal capability assessment".

The OOT applies only for the first 28 weeks of incapacity and when you have a "regular occupation" at the time that you become incapacitated. You must demonstrate that you cannot follow your "regular occupation". This is done by self-certifying for the first seven days, after which you must get your GP to issue you with a Med 3 or Med 5 certificate as appropriate which confirms that you have been advised to refrain from work.
From the 28 week period, the PCA applies. That means that at some point thereafter, you will be called in for an examination by a doctor nominated by the Benefits Agency. Until then, provided that you keep supplying evidence from your GP, you will be treated as continuing to be capable of work.

The PCA requires you to complete a questionnaire about how your illness or disability affects your bodily and mental functions in various ways. You score "points" according to the severity on the effect of various functions. They seek evidence from your GP and you can also submit evidence from other treating doctors. The BA doctor will perform functional assessments and make recommendations as to what the findings of the BA decision maker should be about the points that you score. You need 15 points from physical function categories, 10 from mental function categories or 15 from a combination of the two to pass the PCA.

Incapacity benefit is paid at a lower 'short-term' rate for 28 weeks, and then the higher 'long-term' rate. You can't get incapacity benefit if you're entitled to statutory sick pay.

Naturally, the above is only a very short summary, but hopefully it will resolve the argument about the extent to which GPs are involved. In short: GPs CAN 'sign people off' which enables them to receive ICB initially, but between 6 and 12 months after your become incapable of work it is inevitable that you will be examined by the BA doctor and then your GP's view is only one piece of evidence which will be taken into account in deciding whether you get incapacity benefit.

Most of that is far more accurate than other stuff here but the last bit ( concerning the ineviatability of seeing a BA doctor is not true for all people. on IB.

 

[tobyjug]

Most of that is far more accurate than other stuff here but the last bit ( concerning the ineviatability of seeing a BA doctor is not true for all people. on IB.

It is absolutely inevitable that all people on IB will see a BA doctor with very rare exceptions.
I also ask you to specify which document someones GP can sign that they can take to a post office to get their benefits paid out. (This is what you have been in effect stating from your first message on).

 

[ViolentPanda]

It is absolutely inevitable that all people on IB will see a BA doctor with very rare exceptions.
I also ask you to specify which document someones GP can sign that they can take to a post office to get their benefits paid out. (This is what you have been in effect stating from your first message on).

You're not going to get him to admit he's wrong, or to go into any detail or back up his claims. He's incapable of it.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Most of that is far more accurate than other stuff here but the last bit ( concerning the ineviatability of seeing a BA doctor is not true for all people. on IB.

Except for, as has been said on numerous occasions, when the special rules apply.

 

[aylee]

Most of that is far more accurate than other stuff here but the last bit ( concerning the ineviatability of seeing a BA doctor is not true for all people. on IB.

Incapacity benefit was introduced in 1995. In the early years, there were a number of existing claimants who had been transferred onto incapacity benefit from the old invalidity benefit and who did not get assessed for the PCA (or all work test as it was then called) for quite some considerable time. I had several clients who went for a number of years without being assessed. I'd be frankly astonished, however, if there was anyone still getting incapacity benefit from that time who had never been assessed (unless, of course, they were exempt from the test).

I'd also be very surprised if there was any new non-exempt claimant who received incapacity benefit for much more than twelve months without being assessed.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Incapacity benefit was introduced in 1995. In the early years, there were a number of existing claimants who had been transferred onto incapacity benefit from the old invalidity benefit and who did not get assessed for the PCA (or all work test as it was then called) for quite some considerable time. I had several clients who went for a number of years without being assessed. I'd be frankly astonished, however, if there was anyone still getting incapacity benefit from that time who had never been assessed (unless, of course, they were exempt from the test).

As you say, it is extremely unlikely, especially as the IB awards (as now with DLA awards) aren't made for a "for life" period anymore except in very rare cases (as you probably know, there have been quadriplegics summoned for examination and re-examination). Recipients are subject to re-examination at whim.

I'd also be very surprised if there was any new non-exempt claimant who received incapacity benefit for much more than twelve months without being assessed.

I haven't heard of any (I also phoned contacts at various advice services in the south-east and neither had they).
However, if tbaldwin says he knows of "loads" (his word), we'll just have to wait for him to produce some proof, won't we?

 

[tobyjug]

if there was anyone still getting incapacity benefit from that time who had never been assessed (unless, of course, they were exempt from the test).

I'd also be very surprised if there was any new non-exempt claimant who received incapacity benefit for much more than twelve months without being assessed.

I would be bloody amazed. I was called in for an All Work Test within weeks of the changeover. (And so was anyone else I know who got an earnings related element added which IB scrapped for new claimants).
The tribunal went to great pains to ensure there was no gap at all in my entitlement to the earnings related element as they were very aware it was a callous ploy by the benefits agency to rob people of it.

 

[treelover]

warning resurrected thread, to save bandwith!

report about the demo against benefit cuts/reforms.

from indymedia uk

Report on Disablity Benefit Reforms demo

Swanner | 15.02.2006 13:51 | Leeds Bradford | Liverpool


the opposition to the Govt's plans to cut/ reform Incapacity benefit (and
in the future others) is growing, join it!

A report on the Sheffield Welfare Action (SWAN) demo against disability benefit cuts/reforms in Sheffield on Feb 4th

No Cuts/Challenge the IB reforms!

Despite being called at very short notice, a committed group of disabled claimants, activists, and allies attended the demo, which was called to challenge the Gov’ts plans to cut/reform disability benefits. After, some exhilarating sounds from Sheffield Samba, which helped draw the crowds, They heard speeches from Green Party member Richard who is a disabled claimant who challenged the Gov’t to assist in providing real jobs for those who want to work as his experience of looking for suitable work was pretty negative. The next speaker, Colin, spoke about the history of the disabled people's movement and specifically about the Disabled Action Network(DAN) its history and how it would respond to these reforms. The last speaker, a founder member of Swan spoke assionately about the need for a group such as SWAN: it was necessary to counter the myths about welfare, he said this was just the start of a long battle and expressed his hope that hope that the rest of the social movements would get on board. The reality behind these myths were drove home by the giant placards which identified the many myths about IB and which was much read and commented on by members of the public who stopped to read it. SWAN gave away over 400 flyers, (which were not binned) and took addresses and contacts from lots of folk who are not online, etc. A message of support was also read out from Lancashire Association of Trade Union Councils (LATUC) who held a solidarity demo In Preston.

SWAN will be having another (National) demo in Sheffield in about two months time, and certainly more stalls and there are plans for a national network Contact us below) Many big disabled charities want to work with us as do Trade Unions, Faith Groups, etc, (though we are fiercely independent), and many self help groups and individuals have contacted us for advice and support. As well as our campaign work, responding to the gov’ts green paper, etc, we will be hosting a major benefit concert, street theatre and more lobbies/protests, why not get involved?


Resources:

excellent balanced summary of the changes here.
http://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/benefits/unspun/36_employment_support_allowance.htm

Disability Alliance, challenging the myths,
http://www.disabilityalliance.org/ibfact.doc

Sheffield Welfare Action Network

http://www.swansheffield.org.uk

email [email protected]

join the discusssion! send an email to [email protected]

Disability Alliance, challenging the myths,
http://www.disabilityalliance.org/ibfact.doc