Dirty war - gosh maybe neither side can be trusted

[nino_savatte]

It's about the specific case, and the eagerness in some quarters to paint Israel as bad as possible.

GS(v)

So, although the veracity of the story is in doubt, you are quite prepared to accept it regardless?

 

[bendeus]

Very. Strange. Thread.

OP all over the place

 

[gsv]

I'm interested to hear how you think I'm all over the place bendeus. I don't think I am.

ymu, your latest warrants a more substantial response than I have time for right now.
I'll get back to it, though likely not before this evening.

GS(v)

 

[Fruitloop]

Car-crash thread.

 

[Grandma Death]

Or are you just going 'my darling unsullied Palestinians can't be telling a lie'?

Care to point out where that's being suggested?

 

[bendeus]

Well, your orignial post was rather provocative, and based on 'evidence' that was called, and that you failed to back up.

You then banged on about a poster's 'darling, unsullied Palestinians'.

You then changed tack and made accommodating noises regarding your long-standing revulsion at Israel's behaviour while at the same time trying to defend Israel.

You continue to hang on to your OP as though it was the sine qua non, even though the evidence you presented seems flawed.

Is your point that Israel can be bad, and the Palestinians can be bad, but sometimes the Israeli bads are not actually true, and may indeed be propaganda?

Just doesn't seem too consistent is all. I fail to understand your point, or to even gauge if you have one.

 

[gsv]

Is your point that Israel can be bad, and the Palestinians can be bad, but sometimes the Israeli bads are not actually true, and may indeed be propaganda?

That is my point. And further, that people are very keen to go 'Aha, Israel was BAD!' and rather less keen to go 'Ah, maybe not quite that bad.'

GS(v)

 

[bendeus]

So Israel is bad because it expelled 1,000,000 or so Palestinans from their ancestral lands, but maybe slightly less bad because it may not have killed that kid, if fairly flimsy evidence is to be believed.

Right, having grasped that, what do I do now?

 

[tangentlama]

Have you bothered to look at the evidence?
Or are you just going 'my darling unsullied Palestinians can't be telling a lie'?

GS(v)

No. We're going 'my darling GS(v) is in grave danger of losing his compassion, sensibility, and reason' and has been told a lie.

 

[tangentlama]

Well what do you know, it turns out to be most unlikely that he was killed by Israeli troops, and highly likely that the entire incident was faked propaganda, along with other shocking - faked - images that day.

Read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_al-Durra#Philippe_Karsenty

This is a car-crash thread.
My advice - there are other more pressing matters to discuss about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict than giving time and webspace to Karsenty's conspiracy theories.

 

[ViolentPanda]

No I'm not. You seem to presume I'd defend all of Israel's actions and consider them above reproach. That's not the case. But there's a profound difference between being critical of Isreal's military/occupation conduct and rushing to believe every purported Israeli attrocity.

Why is "Israel murdered this kid" relevant debate, but "looks like they didn't after all" not?

GS(v)

Perhaps because "looks like they didn't" is over-stating any case that those who contest the original story might have.

The truth is that given the urban geography where the incident occurred, the IDF would have been better-placed than any Palestinian "sniper" to have fired the killing shots, unless one could firmly place Palestinian snipers in positions above and behind the IDF (very unlikely, because any unit that didn't secure their perimeter would be drummed out of any army, let alone the IDF).

Having read the article, plus stuff by some of those cited, I personally think it's an interesting theory, but not one substantiated by substantive evidence, only by the circumstantial kind. IMPO, the scales still weigh more toward al-Durrah having been killed (perhaps deliberately, perhaps not) by the IDF.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The other thousands killed are an outrage. What's different about this one is that it was held up as an example of Israeli troops deliberately and callously targetting and killing an innocent child. And that so many on the left were so keen to believe it.

I've not read your link yet - got to go to work. I will.

GS(v)

As I recall from the actual incident, "deliberately and callously targeting" wasn't an accusation made, but rather implied in many newscasts.
It's an unfortunate fact that people are as readily killed by bullets that aren't specifically aimed at them, as they are by bullets that are specifically aimed at them. It doesn't matter whether intent was there, so much as it matters that the bullets were discharged at all.

 

[obanite]

Salwa Zaidan Muhammad Ghali Assaliya, 13, of Jabalya refugee camp, Gaza, killed, with her older sister, by an IDF missile while in her home.

Salsabeel Majid Muhammad abu-Jalhoum, 2, of Jabalya refugee camp, Gaza, killed by an IDF missile while in the garden of her home.

Abdullah Abdul-Karim Mahmoud abu-Shaira, 17, of Jabalya refugee camp, Gaza, killed by an IDF missile while standing in the street with friends.

Abdul-Raouf Abdul-Karim Mahmoud Odeh, 16, of Jabalya refugee camp, Gaza, killed by an IDF missile while standing in the street with friends.

Nael Zuhair Shukri abu-Oun, 12, of Jabalya, Gaza, killed by an IDF missile while standing in the street with friends.

Khaled Munther Abdul-Qader Rayan, 17, of Jabalya refugee camp, Gaza, killed, with his cousin, by an IDF missile as he and others gathered around the destroyed vehicle and bodies of recently assassinated Palestinian fighters.

Ahmad Ziad Abdul-Qader Rayan, 17, of Jabalya refugee camp, Gaza, killed, with his cousin, by an IDF missile as he and others gathered around the destroyed vehicle and bodies of recently assassinated Palestinian fighters.

Ismail Arafat Mustafa abu-Sultan, 17, of Jabalya refugee camp, Gaza, killed by an IDF missile as he and others gathered around the destroyed vehicle and bodies of recently assassinated Palestinian fighters.

Abdul-Karim Husseini Abdul-Latif al-Haw, 14, of Jabalya refugee camp, Gaza, killed by an IDF missile as he and others gathered around the destroyed vehicle and bodies of recently assassinated Palestinian fighters.

Ahmad Nimer Abdul-Latif Zughra, 17, of Gaza City, Gaza, killed by an IDF missile as he and others gathered around the destroyed vehicle and bodies of recently assassinated Palestinian fighters.

Mahmoud Nayef Hamattu Hunaidiq, 16, of Beit Lahya, Gaza, killed by an IDF missile as he and others gathered around the destroyed vehicle and bodies of recently assassinated Palestinian fighters.

Ahmad Naim abu-Salama, 16, of Jabalya, Gaza, killed by an IDF missile as he and others gathered around the destroyed vehicle and bodies of recently assassinated Palestinian fighters.

But one kid who was shot, and whose story might not be true, means we should admit "Ah, Israel isn't that bad after all"?

 

[obanite]

 

[Aldebaran]

Oh God, the OP really thinks he came across something new and reveiling?

All kinds of distortions of and suggestions made about that story popped up like mushrooms in the dark and have been floating around since the very same day the drama of this child and his father hit the media.

The fact the Israelis were there killed him and crippled his father. That is all what really matters.

salaam.

 

[nino_savatte]

It's about the specific case, and the eagerness in some quarters to paint Israel as bad as possible.

GS(v)

LOL!!! You expect me to swallow that?