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Difficulties encountered by disabled travellers on public transport

Irenick said:
Paul, your analysis is correct. Around six years ago I attended the TUC’s Disability Conference. Margaret ‘Horrible’ Hodge attended as a guest speaker in her guise as Disability Minister, or Minister for Disabled People – or, some such CP meaningless title. Her theme was the Disability Rights Commission (DRC); and, the main thrust of her message was: the DRC should not be seen as a body to use litigation in pursuit of its goals – pretty much sums it all up, doesn’t it?

The DRC made it quite clear from the onset that it would only taken on ‘high profile’ type cases that it could win – we can see where Horrible Hodge was going. When it came to employment; the DRC pinned its hopes on trade unions taking up the slack – and, to a large extent we have. The first successful employment case taken under the DDA, Wisdom Toothbrushes, was won by a T&G member – backed by the union. Misguidedly, not all disabled workers belong to a trade union; and so, who do they turn to – not the DRC, for sure.

Early last year, Bert Massie, Chair of the DRC mildly berated employers for avoiding their duty to disabled people. Massie, giving evidence to a parliamentary inquiry into to IB and the government’s Pathways to Work programme last March stated that “More needs to be done to tackle employers’ attitudes towards recruiting disabled people…”

Disabled people who confront attitudinally challenged employers see it differently. We see obstructionist employers, who ignore both Medical and Social Models of Disability in favour of the Economic Model. These days HR departments are clued-up when it comes to turning-down disabled job-seekers.

Sorry for caling you 'middle-class'!
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S'aright, glad that you came back :) Will have a read through your posts and speak a bit more tomorrow. But just to throw it in the ring, you can't help but worry when the DRC become subsumed by the CEHR - again, i would refer to Tom Nightingale as providing convincing arguments about why equalities issues can't (and indeed shouldn't) be approached from some kind of generic view point. Its not necessarily about making things equal (as many people seem to perversly fear anyway), its about recognising differences and acting accordingly, imo.

I agree that the DRC haven't been particularly effective in enforcing disability discrimination law but then i'm not convinced that any other legislation of similar intent has achieved much legally either eg RRA. I went to a meeting a couple of years back with the CRE as they wanted to build their test cases as they'd dropped from ~100 per year to 3 (who was in charge when decisions to cut back overt challenges was taken? A certain Mr T. P******s). That's not to excuse the lack of action, more to highlight that it happens across the board. Night.
 
beeboo said:
I don't know if you got what I meant by my last post. What I meant was there is no point in upgrading the public transport network at huge expense *if* (and I'm only speculating that this could be the case) that this isn't actually addressing what the real barriers are to independent travel for people with disabilities.

If I was hungry, and someone came and gave me a huge gourmet meal, but laid it out on the other side of a locked door, then they haven't actually met my needs - they've given me the food but I can't eat it.

It worries me that a narrow 'equality' perspective encourages a box-ticking mentality about making stations etc accessible, which could mean that at the end of day you have a physcially accessible network which is still behind a 'locked door' for many disabled people.
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But that is why you need to get disabled people properly involved in the process of designing and constructing public services and public spaces. Because then, you will have informed comment that truly takes on board the requirements of the general public. Its not about numbers, i understand what you're intimating about other barriers but it remains undeniably a fact that much transport remains primarily inaccessible for precisely the reasons the irenick and violent panda very eloquently describe, innit.

So what other barriers are there? Other peoples' opinions clearly. Poverty levels increasing for disabled people compared to children and pensioners over 10 years of Labour (that isn't to say there isn't overlap between groups of people, clearly there is), but income inequality and lack of social care and prejudice and discrimination are much bigger fish to fry. Accessible public transport should be an aspiration for all of us, cos we're all the public, its for all of us.
 
Irenick said:
Blatantly lie, misrepresent and twist your words TopCat?

If you will insist on posting so provocatively; posting with the expressed intention of prompting reaction; don’t be surprised if people throw your own words back in your face. Unlike a tête-à-tête; where off the cuff remarks are made, and then fade away…On here your words are recorded; written large for all to see; to go back and forth; to read and, if necessary reread.

TopCat, I have not presented myself well on this thread; and, for that I apologise – sorry to anyone that I have offended.
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Well I accept your apology, sort of. I don't mind having my words quoted, thrown in my face or bandied about or whatever. It's the putting words into my mouth I strongly dislike.
 
Irenick said:
TC, you may be right; the free car and drivers option could well be cheaper than massive infrastructural change. However, this isn’t going to happen; in fact, neither will happen – no time soon anyway.

Yet, transport isn’t the only issue disabled encounter on a day-to-day basis. Every aspect of life throws up one barrier or another to disabled people. Whether it’s trying to get into and around shops, pubs, restaurants, clubs, cinemas, theatres, sports stadia, swimming pools, gyms, parks, gardens, friends’ houses, relatives’ houses, old buildings of interest, work places, the pyramids etc; or, trying to access services, both public and private.

I know! It would be cheaper to build fit-for-purpose disabled communities, free of charge. Just like the provision of cars and drivers, free; creating ‘special’ communities for disabled people would solve your problem, and very likely salve your conscience.

But, where does that leave us? Where does it leave society? Who is next?

TC, your suggested solution to accessible travel serves only to further marginalise disabled people. While some disabled people would, and do opt for the private car option; many wish to use public transport; they wish to make a meaningful contribution to the environment; and, more selfishly, take part in ‘normal’ human intercourse.

I find your attitude towards disabled people rather disturbing. When you’re not decrying the excessively expensive access costs that we force upon public transport providers; you are proposing ways of getting us off public transport. Well, that’s my reading of your views TC.
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You read in a strange manner, perhaps by translating what I actually post into some sort of anti disablist rant that only exists in your own head.

But while this goes on I carry on trying to improve services for all and this very much includes acessibility.
 
TopCat said:
You read in a strange manner, perhaps by translating what I actually post into some sort of anti disablist rant that only exists in your own head.

But while this goes on I carry on trying to improve services for all and this very much includes acessibility.
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If I apologised to you; it was not intentional, and I’m sorry if I in any way inflated an already overgrown sense of smug self-belief. If I did apologise, I mustn’t have been lucid at the time – either that or on drugs; and, if not on drugs – well, maybe I should seriously consider it as an option.

TC, are you saying that you don’t read differently? Don’t we all, each and every one of us, as individuals read everything differently? Are you stating that you read, and assimilate all information in exactly the same way your partner or lover or mother or father or therapist or drug dealer or maid or butler or consumer advisor or masseur or boss do? Are you an android TC?

My reading of your words isn’t strange TC; it is peculiar – see above for my meaning; but, not strange.

TopCat, you are taking the piss aren’t you? Please say you are. Go on; admit you’re a member of a far-right anti-disability group; and, that you inveigled your way into your current job. Ostensibly you are employed to improve transport services for disabled people; while in reality, you’re just another clueless cunt who gets paid too much for doing fuck-all.

It’s not words I’d like to put in your mouth TP. No, I’d rather see you eat the shit you dish out on here.
 
Irenick said:
If I apologised to you; it was not intentional, and I’m sorry if I in any way inflated an already overgrown sense of smug self-belief. If I did apologise, I mustn’t have been lucid at the time – either that or on drugs; and, if not on drugs – well, maybe I should seriously consider it as an option.

TC, are you saying that you don’t read differently? Don’t we all, each and every one of us, as individuals read everything differently? Are you stating that you read, and assimilate all information in exactly the same way your partner or lover or mother or father or therapist or drug dealer or maid or butler or consumer advisor or masseur or boss do? Are you an android TC?

My reading of your words isn’t strange TC; it is peculiar – see above for my meaning; but, not strange.

TopCat, you are taking the piss aren’t you? Please say you are. Go on; admit you’re a member of a far-right anti-disability group; and, that you inveigled your way into your current job. Ostensibly you are employed to improve transport services for disabled people; while in reality, you’re just another clueless cunt who gets paid too much for doing fuck-all.

It’s not words I’d like to put in your mouth TP. No, I’d rather see you eat the shit you dish out on here.
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Go wheel yourself off of the nearest cliff eh?:)
 
TopCat said:
Go wheel yourself off of the nearest cliff eh?:)
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Okkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk..........................................



.............arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh....

I think I've............

Lol
 
Knowing my luck TopCat will have had a hand in the accessibility of the cliff she/he/it wishes me to wheel myself off. Poor old me thwarted at every turn; it’d just be like most things in life. You know, the contraceptive pill invented by men who never used it; consultants telling disabled people how they feel; occupational therapists using their own non-disabled criteria to assess disabled people’s independent living needs; and, clueless designers imposing their impractical designs on others.

TopCat, is there a particular cliff you’d like to recommend from which I make my downward journey to oblivion? And, would you like to sit on my lap; we could be company for one and other as we plummet southwards.

Oh the irony of it.
 
TopCat, aren’t you supposed to be devilishly designing discomfort and despondency into journeys for disabled people? And, here’s you, just after 3 pm doling out drollery on Urban75. No wonder the public transport system cannot cope with wheelchairs; when it’s top accessibility designer is busily bandying words with a brain-damaged crip and, coming off third best.

Lol.
 
My don't you have some baggage. Enough to block any train aisle that's for sure.

<sticks fuckwit on ignore>
 
Paulie Tandoori said:
But that is why you need to get disabled people properly involved in the process of designing and constructing public services and public spaces. Because then, you will have informed comment that truly takes on board the requirements of the general public. Its not about numbers, i understand what you're intimating about other barriers but it remains undeniably a fact that much transport remains primarily inaccessible for precisely the reasons the irenick and violent panda very eloquently describe, innit.

So what other barriers are there? Other peoples' opinions clearly. Poverty levels increasing for disabled people compared to children and pensioners over 10 years of Labour (that isn't to say there isn't overlap between groups of people, clearly there is), but income inequality and lack of social care and prejudice and discrimination are much bigger fish to fry. Accessible public transport should be an aspiration for all of us, cos we're all the public, its for all of us.
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yeah - I didn't mean to say it was about numbers at all, I phrased it badly.

Simple example of what I meant: At my home train station in London, there has been a successful campaign to get step-free access to both platforms (a simple matter of opening a locked side gate and putting in a lowered kerb ...has still taken the local community group years of nagging). So it ticks a box of being an 'accessible' station. The station which I commute to each day is also 'accessible', as are the trains I use.

However, there is no way I could make my commute if I were a wheelchair user. For starters I wouldn't be able to get from my house to the station (the current brisk 10 minutes walk would be a nightmare of raised kerbs, cars parked on pavements, slopes and hills). And there is no way I'd ever be able to get onto a rush hour train with a wheelchair anyway.

Or what if I had a more severe disability which meant I needed to be constantly accompanied by a carer and bulky medical equipment?

So what I meant to say was you can provide equality in one way but completely miss the goal of actually helping people get from one place they want to be to another place they want to be.

Anyway agree with everything you say above and have learnt a lot from this thread - extremely interesting :)
 
Irenick said:
GarfieldLaChat, in your ignorance you misspelt the word ignorance. The correct spelling of ‘ignorence’ is ignorance; you ignoramus.
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Can i just point out that you're taking the piss out of someone who is dyslexic i.e. someone who is covered by the DDA as being disabled.
 
Paulie Tandoori said:
Can i just point out that you're taking the piss out of someone who is dyslexic i.e. someone who is covered by the DDA as being disabled.
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Now you're taking the piss Paulie - it's a fucking conspiracy.

She or he is dyslexic? I had no idea. Just as GarfieldLaChat had no idea when she or he called me ‘wacky’ that I’m brain-damaged.

Which of us is the greater sinner?
 
No its not, Garf is dyslexic, s'all. And i'm not sure that wacky implies what you think it does myself either. Anyways, i can't be arsed with having a row, there has been some decent discussion o/s of the name calling.
 
Paulie Tandoori said:
No its not, Garf is dyslexic, s'all. And i'm not sure that wacky implies what you think it does myself either. Anyways, i can't be arsed with having a row, there has been some decent discussion o/s of the name calling.
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Fuck me Paul, you did it with TopCat; offering mitigating circumstances for his insults to me. Now, you’re doing the same for Garfeeeee. Don’t any of your mates ever fuck up? What are you; their fucking brief?

But Pauli, I am sure what ‘wackie’ implies. Wackie can imply idiocy, stupidity and foolishness. All terms that could be used to discriminate against someone who is brain-damaged. I think you’ll find I’m correct under the DDA; the DDA which you’re trying to bash me over an already battered bonce – so cruel.

Are you taking your ball away? lol
 
I'm not making excuses for anyone, i don't need to. All i'm trying to do is avoid a mostly valuable discussion descending into name calling. No mitigating, merely making an observation designed to inform.

No matter, i'm off t'boozer for a couple of jars (and its my ball anyway :p :) )
 
Irenick said:
Did I touch a nerve, cunt?
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Nah just bored with discussing important issues with a potty mouth as I realise you don't undestand the concept of debate and discussion.
 
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