Difficulties encountered by disabled travellers on public transport

[Irenick]

I quite often travle by train with Mrs ats, who is a wheelchair user.

I don't think it's just a matter of lack of consideration, though that's certainly one aspect of it (and I know it's going to be different for us than for a solo wheelchair user).

But I think the core problem is that the trains are designed with too little luggage space. The space that is marked as being for wheelcahir users has pretty much been designed in as luggage space. ONnsome trains it's the only place that you can put a suitcase.

Like a lot of access stuff, it's about desinging out barriers, not relying on saintly behaviour from non-disabled people.

Right Ats, designers disregard the luggage storage needs of the travelling public; thus, I forgive Joe travelling public’s un-saintly building luggage barriers that I have to try to negotiate. Your argument about designated wheelchair spaces being indistinguishable from luggage racks is fucking priceless. When was the last time you mistook some poor fucking cripple sitting in his wheelchair for a fucking luggage rack? No wonder I’m treated the way I am by other travellers. It seems that one look at yours truly; and, the average zombie train user begins stacking his schnide Louis Vuittons on top of me.

Ats, it’s about relying on people to treat other people like human beings. See the person: not the luggage rack! If the luggage over-burdened travelling public want to vent their spleen on someone; leave the fucking crips alone; and go for the train operators – or, is it just so much easier to kick some cunt who can’t kick back?

 

[Gixxer1000]

Fishy bait.

 

[Irenick]

Hello Rewritable, you ok?

I’ve got an old rusty Ford of a manual wheelchair – it squeaks and creaks as I push it, and my sorry scraggy self hither thither. But, it works; and, more importantly it forces me to work.

The craic with the buses is the pressure put on drivers by schedules and other passengers – but, mainly passengers. A driver cannot be penalised for reaching her destination late; she may be penalised for returning earlier than scheduled – accidents and faults aside. And, of course, there are a small minority of drivers that take the law into their own hands. For instance; the regulations on London buses state that wheelchair users take precedence over all other passengers. This is that anyone, occupying a designated wheelchair area on a bus, must vacate that space for a wheelchair user.

Therefore, a person with a baby buggy must move if a wheelchair user wishes to board a bus; people sitting or occupying the designated space must make way for the chair; people blocking the area must allow the chair room to manoeuvre into place. Whether people like it or not; this is TfL policy; agreed to by all bus operators – and, by association their employees.

In the past bus drivers have denied me access. When challenged, on one occasion, the driver sheepishly informed me the bus was full. I asked whether he was carrying another wheelchair user – no, he wasn’t. I pointed out to him his duty to me. He enquired as to how he could get people to move along the bus. I suggested he asked them. To which, he replied “Ask them yourself!” “Let me on, and I will” was my response.

Anyway, a very nice lady came along. Walked onto the bus; and, politely asked the passengers if they’d mind moving along to allow a poor unfortunate broken bodied being the chance of riding on a bus; and, guess what? Yep, they uncomplainingly moved along the bus, thus allowing me access. Other drivers have forcefully let me know that they were not willing to disrupt paying customers by forcing them to give up their seats for a non-paying passenger – me! Here we have another misconception. London bus, tube and most train travellers do not purchase a seat when travelling; no, they purchase the right to be conveyed.

I’ll tell you about taxis in Chapter 2: “Sorry Guv, sarf of ve riva in a willcher; yur aht fer a Steffie!”

Try the 44 bus Rewritable.

 

[Irenick]

Fishy bait.

Soapy twat?

 

[TopCat]

How accessible is a bus when the driver refuses to let a wheelchair user on? What fucking solidarity do I get from the sardine cunts on these buses; when, in silence they ignore my plight? Why should I have anything but malign contempt for cunts that try to climb over me as I’m attempting to persuade a driver to let me on a bus? To allow me to get home; out of wet clothes; out of the cold; and, to try to alleviate the chronic pain I’m experiencing. Why should I have solidarity for this fascistic fuckwittery; for those that would trample over me in order to claim a place on a bus; for the cunts that refuse to move and allow me into the bus; for the cunts that don’t allow me to make myself seen to a driver? What have these cunts done to earn my solidarity?

Accessible cabs? You’re having a fucking giggle you muppet fuckcunt. For them to be accessible they have to stop long enough to enable crips to try and board. To be accessible, the drivers must see us; they must recognise us, as we hail in vain. I have a TaxiCard. I live fairly near central London. From March 2005 to March 2006 I was allowed 144 journeys. I managed to have 111 journeys outstanding from the 2005-06 allocation. Some fucking service that is; duncha think?

Listen TopCat you fucking borin’ moron. Accessibility is about more than some poxy infrastructural tinkering. Access is a state of mind. If train companies, bus and taxi drivers wish to place barriers on my access; all the ‘accessible toilets on trains; all the kneeling buses; and, wheelchair ‘friendly’ taxis in the world won’t mean a fucking thing. If these cunts refuse to keep shithouses on trains working; if bus drivers refuse to let us on ‘their’ buses; or, if cabbies render us invisible – then mate we are as fucked now as we were 20 years ago.

I think you were right to colour your rant in green.

 

[TopCat]

But seriously, the situation regading accessibility is vastly superior to 20 years ago. Back then no taxis were accessible, no buses were accessible, trains were hardly accessible at all. Ramps to get into buildings were often too steep to use. Shops made sod all provision for accessibility. The situation today is far from perfect but is definately an improvement on 20 years ago.

Re the Taxicard, computer cab provide a crap service yes, the mayor however is likely to take his contribution to taxicard away soonish and start his own door to door service that actually guarantees a journey.

Re Bus drivers not stopping for you, report them, gross misconduct and the sack would be the result. Bus company mangement only know about poor service is a TFL inspector is on board or if a passenger complains.

 

[Irenick]

Topcat, in your earlier post you went out of your way to emphasise that disability access comes at a great cost. Do you despise disabled people? Do you feel it necessary to beat us about the head with cost? Every thing costs TopCat. Buses put seats on vehicles (at a huge cost); buses maintain vehicles (at a huge cost); buses train drivers (at a huge cost); government subsidises buses at a huge cost. Costs to bus companies are not purely driven by crips.

The huge cost you decry is in reality nonsense. 12 years ago the Disability Discrimination Act crept meekly onto the statute books. At the time different areas, such as employment, goods and services, education, transport etc were given due notice to begin a process change – that is, even though they fell outside compliance to the DDA at the time; they should get their houses in order for when they became compliant.

In October 2005, small employers lost their exemption status. Despite ‘warnings’ over a long period of time; most have disregarded their duty to disabled people. Consequently, the numbers of disabled people in employment has not improved markedly over the past 15 months.

All transport operators were put on alert in 1995 when the DDA was enacted. Buses and trains actually have until 2019 and 2020 to become fully compliant. While I believe a quarter of a century is too long a run-in period; I nonetheless appreciate that bus and train companies need to renew very expensive vehicles and rolling stock, which cannot be done over night.

However, the DDA has been around for 12 years; and, transport companies are still producing buses and rolling stock that do not meet access standards. Indeed, companies and businesses are still producing new-build premises that ignore access.

No doubt TopCat you are a voice for the downtrodden huddled masses of capitalism. Capitalists that believe that paying £5.35 an hour to employees is too huge a cost; capitalists that think health and safety measures are an unnecessary drain on their profits; capitalists that view trade unions as a hindrance to their riding rough-shod over work forces; capitalists who initiate wars to feed industry to feed their greed.

 

[TopCat]

Me despise disabled people? You are having a laugh! I actually work in the transport industry and arrange and provide excellent services for people with disabilities. As for painting me as some sort of mad capitalist who resents paying minimum wage, well it's just daft and baseless.

 

[Irenick]

Yes, there have been improvements over the past 20 years to disability access. Yet, this hardly makes up for the indifference and inertia of the preceding 10,000 years; does it? While our part of the world has been making giant strides; tearing down barriers and building palaces to house liberal thinking and ideas; putting in place societal safeguards for every conceivable contingency. The plight of disabled people was paid lip service; even in today’s bright glare of disability awareness places such as hospitals militate against the needs of disabled people – in fact I’d argue that hospitals are among the worse places for crips to visit.

TopCat, don’t be surprised if crips like me don’t gratefully tug at our forelocks in appreciation of improvements to accessibility. You paint a picture of benevolent businesses reducing the steepness of ramps; of shops opening their arms and doors wide enough to embrace crips; of buses and trains tripping over themselves to design practical accessibility into their vehicles. Trains are so advanced these days; you want to use your laptop, there you go a point to plug into. However, if you want to book a wheelchair reservation on a train; and, you go through an interminable process of booking train tickets; then booking a place for yourself on the train; booking a place for your carer (hopefully in the same carriage); you then need to report to an office at the station an hour or so before departure; then, the booking clerk does all this in reverse, while you hang patiently on the phone.

Why the complicated D-Day level forward planning? Have you seen the ramps? They are eminently portable light-weight aluminium designed for specific use pieces of kit. They are usually housed at a point on the platform in line with the ‘wheelchair carriage’. Yet, you’d think that the railway companies were embarking on a global expedition; not just unlocking a 1.8 meter long, possibly 12-14 kilo in weight piece of equipment; opening out the two leaves; placing it at a right angle to the train door; and, then (in the case of manual wheelchairs) pushing the crip on or off the train. It ain’t fucking planning the mass transit of people across the globe; it’s 15 minutes work, tops, either end.

There is no excuse for any business or service provider that have started up, moved premises or undertaken refurbishment of premises in the past 10 years to deny disabled people access. But, I know of countless shops, restaurants, hotels, offices, public buildings etc that have spent countless thousands tarting up their corporate image; some putting in every conceivable frippery of capitalistic decadence to their business; while, disregarding the most basic access needs for disabled people.

Guess what TopCat; your spurious argument of enormous cost in making things accessible falls down not only for transport; but, especially with building design. If access is designed into the building; how much extra do you suppose it would cost to make a door opening 150 mm wider? Take it from me, it would be minimal. Introducing accessible building elements at the point of design actually adds very little to overall construction costs; yet, benefits a wide range of people. Elderly people, small children, pregnant women, mothers and fathers with babies in buggies, all people carrying heavy loads such as shopping, lazy bastards and disabled people could all benefit from accessible buildings.

Pie tomorrow is not good enough. Fuck waiting for our rewards in heaven. All around us we see what can be done; we see what can be achieved when there’s a will. So come on humankind (there’s gotta be an oxymoron in there somewhere) show some willingness to those of us that can’t easily scale the barriers physical, cultural and societal built up over millennia.

As for TaxiCard; I think this scheme is deserving only my most splenetic of vitriol…

 

[academia]

in a luggage rack? out of the way of other people?

A lot of trains don't have luggage racks, or at least not ones that would take anything bigger than a briefcase.

 

[radio_atomica]

Wow, for someone trying to preach the rights of disabled people to use public transport to us uneducated fools who obviously have no sympathy or understanding whatsoever for your plight you're not exactly going about it in a very sensible way.

If someone in a wheelchair asks me to move, I will immediately move. However, if, for some reason, I have not moved enough, or didn't hear them the first time, or they didn't even say excuse me they just stood there staring at me and then went off their rocker at me because I'm not a mind reader and don't have eyes in the back of my head* I would not take kindly to being told to 'Fuck off'. Especially as I know how hard it can be to get about in a wheelchair as my mother uses one.

Does being disabled somehow exempt you from being polite? Yes, corporations and service providers do give a shoddy deal to the disabled at times, but a lot of places give shit service to everyone, but to tell members of the general public the 'fuck off' because they haven't moved out of the way enough for you to get past is a bit hypocritical when you're complaining about their rudeness. People do not respond to agressiveness and most people who I have encountered tend to do what they are asked if asked politely or the situation is fully explained where needed. However, some of the rudest people I've encountered in situations such as the ones you describe are the people making the request for extra help for whatever reason because they are always anticipating some kind of negative reaction and over-compensate before anyone's even said anything.

This thread is clearly about a lot more than just accessibility on public transport....

*all these things have happened to me in the past.

 

[Irenick]

Me despise disabled people? You are having a laugh! I actually work in the transport industry and arrange and provide excellent services for people with disabilities. As for painting me as some sort of mad capitalist who resents paying minimum wage, well it's just daft and baseless.

Hmm, echoes of “How can I be a racist; some of my best friends are black!” there TopCat.

Your interpretation of excellent services for disabled people could run to letting us travel in a draughty guards van on the Orient Express to ‘humane’ euthanasia. The way in which you use the ‘enormous cost’ of the most basic of access ‘improvements’ to transport as a blunt instrument with which to beat pinko crips with, may not make you a capitalist per se; but, it lends you the appearance of an apologist for cancerous capitalism.

 

[Irenick]

Wow, for someone trying to preach the rights of disabled people to use public transport to us uneducated fools who obviously have no sympathy or understanding whatsoever for your plight you're not exactly going about it in a very sensible way.

If someone in a wheelchair asks me to move, I will immediately move. However, if, for some reason, I have not moved enough, or didn't hear them the first time, or they didn't even say excuse me they just stood there staring at me and then went off their rocker at me because I'm not a mind reader and don't have eyes in the back of my head* I would not take kindly to being told to 'Fuck off'. Especially as I know how hard it can be to get about in a wheelchair as my mother uses one.

Does being disabled somehow exempt you from being polite? Yes, corporations and service providers do give a shoddy deal to the disabled at times, but a lot of places give shit service to everyone, but to tell members of the general public the 'fuck off' because they haven't moved out of the way enough for you to get past is a bit hypocritical when you're complaining about their rudeness. People do not respond to agressiveness and most people who I have encountered tend to do what they are asked if asked politely or the situation is fully explained where needed. However, some of the rudest people I've encountered in situations such as the ones you describe are the people making the request for extra help for whatever reason because they are always anticipating some kind of negative reaction and over-compensate before anyone's even said anything.

This thread is clearly about a lot more than just accessibility on public transport....

*all these things have happened to me in the past.

I’m not preaching on here. I’m venting my anger against those that make my life more difficult than it need be.

Radio_atomica, my “fuck offs!” are only ever given air as a last resort. As for someone with their back turned; I would not have the temerity to assume they’d even heard me. As the person may be deaf or using headphones.

I deliver an “Excuse me please!” with a fairly stentorian delivery, as I practice the Alexander Technique; and, am therefore able to make myself heard from a distance of a couple of meters without to much trouble. But then, there’s the passenger that is facing me; even making eye contact, with that wind-up quizzical-cum-superciliousness that suggests “Yeh, I know you’re there; but, hey so fucking what?”. Who, when I smile and politely ask to move; demonstrates a perverse intransigence – it is almost as if he or she wants to engage in a battle of wills. In these situations; what do I do? People are piling up behind me. Some of the darlings trying to force my chair out of their path; others attempting to tackle my north face without a Sherpa; and, of course the bus going nowhere.

You’re right Radio_atomica shoddy services are not the preserve of cripples. Shoddy, inadequate or poor services are all too often the norm. Late public transport, inadequate timetables, over used systems is symptomatic of what you are saying. And, my heart screams silently in its icy cage for your suffering. But hey! Cripples like me have that to contend with before all the other shit that’s shovelled our way. So, if it’s sympathy you’re trying to elicit through your crie de cour; look for another shoulder darling; these ones’ve been broken too many times by heavy suitcases. What about a compromise? I’ll swap my shitty experiences for those you encounter.

 

[rewritable]

Hello Rewritable, you ok?

I’ve got an old rusty Ford of a manual wheelchair – it squeaks and creaks as I push it, and my sorry scraggy self hither thither. But, it works; and, more importantly it forces me to work.

The craic with the buses is the pressure put on drivers by schedules and other passengers – but, mainly passengers. A driver cannot be penalised for reaching her destination late; she may be penalised for returning earlier than scheduled – accidents and faults aside. And, of course, there are a small minority of drivers that take the law into their own hands. For instance; the regulations on London buses state that wheelchair users take precedence over all other passengers. This is that anyone, occupying a designated wheelchair area on a bus, must vacate that space for a wheelchair user.

Therefore, a person with a baby buggy must move if a wheelchair user wishes to board a bus; people sitting or occupying the designated space must make way for the chair; people blocking the area must allow the chair room to manoeuvre into place. Whether people like it or not; this is TfL policy; agreed to by all bus operators – and, by association their employees.

In the past bus drivers have denied me access. When challenged, on one occasion, the driver sheepishly informed me the bus was full. I asked whether he was carrying another wheelchair user – no, he wasn’t. I pointed out to him his duty to me. He enquired as to how he could get people to move along the bus. I suggested he asked them. To which, he replied “Ask them yourself!” “Let me on, and I will” was my response.

Anyway, a very nice lady came along. Walked onto the bus; and, politely asked the passengers if they’d mind moving along to allow a poor unfortunate broken bodied being the chance of riding on a bus; and, guess what? Yep, they uncomplainingly moved along the bus, thus allowing me access. Other drivers have forcefully let me know that they were not willing to disrupt paying customers by forcing them to give up their seats for a non-paying passenger – me! Here we have another misconception. London bus, tube and most train travellers do not purchase a seat when travelling; no, they purchase the right to be conveyed.

I’ll tell you about taxis in Chapter 2: “Sorry Guv, sarf of ve riva in a willcher; yur aht fer a Steffie!”

Try the 44 bus Rewritable.

Cheers Irenick. Is there an obvious way to identify the bus and driver? It does sound like (from the bumpf on their site) that there's no excuse for not letting you on. Do you know if there's some sort of get out clause about there not being enough room for people to vacate the wheelchair space?

What springs to my mind is to take picture of bus and driver (though I can see this is a different proposition for a pusher as your hands are "full") as this could demonstate how full the bus was and the identity of the offending driver. It could be hard to get pictures through windows though and I recognise you probably aren't looking to make every trip home a campaigning mission.

Have you contacted the bus company about this issue? It'd be interesting to know what their line was.

Looking forward to part.2 about taxis

 

[Irenick]

I’m not sure where you get your intelligence from TopCat. But, when, in May last year I questioned Livingstone on the credibility of ComCab as the main operator of TaxiCard in London; he responded that ComCab were doing a good job; and, that they’d probably carry on with the contract.

ComCab also guarantee a journey; but, it doesn’t say when they’ll send a taxi around to fulfil this important part of the scheme. And, the reality is that they are not in a position to fulfil any guarantee they may make; mainly because, they have no control over individual taxi drivers that subscribe to ComCab.

I know cabbies. Born and bred amongst them. And, they are as mixed a bunch of good and bad as you’ll find anywhere. However, like most of us they like to follow a line of least resistance when working. Therefore, for those licensed to work all over London; it is only natural that they will gravitate towards where the jobs are – for the most part the West End, Central London, the City, Kensington and Chelsea and the main line termini. If you look at a map of London you’ll see this area involved covers less than 5% of our sprawling capital.

There are 19,000 Hackney cabs in London. ComCab, and its affiliated fleets, have a 50% of vehicles on the road. Even taking into account cabs off the road, holidays, weekend cabbies, split shifts etc ComCab might then have, say 4,000 cabs on the road at any one time.

This sounds great. Surely enough taxis to satisfy the needs of London’s TaxiCard crip population. Well, there would be if the people that hold the power in this relationship, taxi drivers, would accept their responsibility to TaxiCard holders and contractual obligations to ComCab.

I’m not sure of the fine details but I’ve been told that the computer system whereby taxi drivers accept jobs is fatally flawed when it comes to TaxiCard. Some taxi drivers subscribe to ComCab – I think mainly, because during less busy periods it gives them much needed fares. ComCab’s office will get a call requesting a taxi to go from A to B at a given time, which may even be immediately, or as soon as one is available. ComCab then puts a call out to drivers.

Taxi drivers do not have to respond to the alert – indeed, if they have a fare they probably won’t. They can’t respond, and then pick and choose their jobs either. They’re allowed to turn down a certain amount; after which they are penalised. There seems to be a way in which taxi drivers know if the call is for a TaxiCard account – something to do with a different signal being emitted from their computer. Consequently, they can ignore the TaxiCard jobs. Unfortunately, there is an element among taxi drivers that view crips as a hindrance; and, do not want the hassle of picking us up.

I don’t know if what I’ve stated is fact, or apocryphal. If it is apocryphal, then there must be some other explanation as to why 8 times out of 10 ComCab telephone to inform me that there are no taxis available; and, should they continue to try to locate one. Why, I often wait for an anything up to an hour, past the appointed time, for a taxi to turn up – by which time I’ve missed my meeting or appointment. Sure, I could book early. Say, 9 am for a midday appointment. Yes, I could arrive 2¼ hours early for a meeting and sit in the cold and rain in my chair for the venue to open. But, why should I? If something is offered as a service. Then make it a service that can be fully used by its end-users. Not, as TaxiCard is for me, a mean-spirited scheme dangled tantalizingly in front of me; only to be pulled away when I try to access it.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

Wow, for someone trying to preach the rights of disabled people to use public transport to us uneducated fools who obviously have no sympathy or understanding whatsoever for your plight you're not exactly going about it in a very sensible way.

If someone in a wheelchair asks me to move, I will immediately move.

That's good of you.

However, if, for some reason, I have not moved enough, or didn't hear them the first time, or they didn't even say excuse me they just stood there staring at me and then went off their rocker at me because I'm not a mind reader and don't have eyes in the back of my head* I would not take kindly to being told to 'Fuck off'. Especially as I know how hard it can be to get about in a wheelchair as my mother uses one.

So presumably you agree that the accessibility and the attitude of, unfortunately, a large amount of people is pretty poor by anyone's standards then?

Does being disabled somehow exempt you from being polite? Yes, corporations and service providers do give a shoddy deal to the disabled at times, but a lot of places give shit service to everyone, but to tell members of the general public the 'fuck off' because they haven't moved out of the way enough for you to get past is a bit hypocritical when you're complaining about their rudeness. People do not respond to agressiveness and most people who I have encountered tend to do what they are asked if asked politely or the situation is fully explained where needed. However, some of the rudest people I've encountered in situations such as the ones you describe are the people making the request for extra help for whatever reason because they are always anticipating some kind of negative reaction and over-compensate before anyone's even said anything.

This thread is clearly about a lot more than just accessibility on public transport....

*all these things have happened to me in the past.

Maybe bad attitudes are fostered by continuously encountering similar bad attitudes from other people, simply for not being up to the mark in their eyes? Why do you need to be asked? Why can't somone be aware of what goes on around them and respond in a suitable manner? You have strange ideas of personal responsibility of you arske me.

 

[TopCat]

Hmm, echoes of “How can I be a racist; some of my best friends are black!” there TopCat.

Wanker

 

[Irenick]

Wow, for someone trying to preach the rights of disabled people to use public transport to us uneducated fools who obviously have no sympathy or understanding whatsoever for your plight you're not exactly going about it in a very sensible way.

If someone in a wheelchair asks me to move, I will immediately move. However, if, for some reason, I have not moved enough, or didn't hear them the first time, or they didn't even say excuse me they just stood there staring at me and then went off their rocker at me because I'm not a mind reader and don't have eyes in the back of my head* I would not take kindly to being told to 'Fuck off'. Especially as I know how hard it can be to get about in a wheelchair as my mother uses one.

Does being disabled somehow exempt you from being polite? Yes, corporations and service providers do give a shoddy deal to the disabled at times, but a lot of places give shit service to everyone, but to tell members of the general public the 'fuck off' because they haven't moved out of the way enough for you to get past is a bit hypocritical when you're complaining about their rudeness. People do not respond to agressiveness and most people who I have encountered tend to do what they are asked if asked politely or the situation is fully explained where needed. However, some of the rudest people I've encountered in situations such as the ones you describe are the people making the request for extra help for whatever reason because they are always anticipating some kind of negative reaction and over-compensate before anyone's even said anything.

This thread is clearly about a lot more than just accessibility on public transport....

*all these things have happened to me in the past.

First prize for pointing out the 'oh-so-fucking-obvious'; this thread is about all the hidebound prejudices encountered by me. It’s one thing being fucked over by authority; to be treated like shite by faceless bureaucrats. But, when disabled people are met with the same shite by their peers; when other passengers shit on us, because they in turn are shit upon; well, is it surprising he at the bottom of the pile takes up arms against a sea of troubles?

For my part, I’d far rather travel without incessant confrontation. Having to be continuously vigilant against fellow travellers that would en-suitcase me in a wall of luggage, or block my access – which, in an emergency could also be my escape route. We can blame the travel operators as much as we want for their shitty services; but, at the bus stops or on the trains common courtesy and respect for others comes into play. It’s part of the societal contract we all must sign up to, in order that we’re able to co-exist.

Radio_atomica, if while on a train you want to pee; I guess you make your way to the WC. If people block your way, you excuse yourself; and, where space is tight, you squeeze through. If a bag or case blocks your path, similarly you squeeze past or step over the luggage. Then about your mission to pee, problems surmounted.

Some cripples, me included, need toilet facilities more than the average person. In such circumstances it is quite important that I can move freely from carriage to the WC, which is sited outside in the vestibule. Sadly, I cannot step over the legs of people seated on the floor; I cannot climb over suitcases that block my way to the toilet; nor can I physically make myself, or my wheelchair smaller, and squeeze past people who have no, or poor spatial awareness. So, when I politely ask someone to allow me to pass; and, they all they do is in effect shuffle their feet, or turn 45º, but still obviously blocking the doorway or aisle causing me to piss myself. I have every right to become a bit tetchy; resorting even to abusive language.

What about my fucking dignity in all this?

Incidentally radio_atomica, you may be able to sense how hard it is to get around in a wheelchair; but, it is your mother, the wheelchair user that knows how hard it is.

 

[Irenick]

Wanker

Fucking scum cunt!

 

[TopCat]

Fucking scum cunt!

You personify the very real adage that you can't stereotype any group of people, that every spectrum may be represented including the complete fucking idiots like yourself.

 

[chio]

What's so much Chio? Is, "Fuck off you moronic muppet minion" too much? Is once in a lifetime too much? Once a journey; or, should I restrict one "Fuck off" to the inward and outward journeys? Am I diminishing the emphasis of a good “Fuck off” by so casually firing from the lip? How about I adopt a passive role; and, wait meekly to come into my inheritance? Yes, I could allow my dignity to be stripped away; and, sit and fester in my own worthlessness…

Or, I could rip the piss out of any cunt that crosses me with a benign smile; or, a-never-mind-things-could-be-worse philosophy to crippledom. “FUCK OFF!” I say to any cunt that expects me to eat the shit they’ve turned their noses up to.

You've called people on this thread muppet fuckcunts, various other insults and told pretty much everyone to fuck off. Hardly doing you a lot of good. I can understand you're angry, but if you go round the streets telling people to fuck off, someone will, at some point, take umbrage. Being disabled doesn't give you the exclusive right to act like a pillock

 

[Irenick]

You've called people on this thread muppet fuckcunts, various other insults and told pretty much everyone to fuck off. Hardly doing you a lot of good. I can understand you're angry, but if you go round the streets telling people to fuck off, someone will, at some point, take umbrage. Being disabled doesn't give you the exclusive right to act like a pillock

But, you misrepresenting what I've said does make you a cunt.

 

[Irenick]

You personify the very real adage that you can't stereotype any group of people, that every spectrum may be represented including the complete fucking idiots like yourself.

And, you personify the cunts that I despise.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

@irenick

As some who has tried to go along with the issues that you're raising, I have to say that you're basic approach isn't likely to endear you to many if you continue to fling insults around mate. FWIW, the basis of what TopCat wrote is true to an extent i.e. ability of disabled people to travel independently is better than 20/30 years ago. BUT you're also completely correct to say that things need to go a lot further and there is no reason for anyone to be complacent.

I'm have no doubts that you feel deeply frustrated and angry about the situation you describe, about being effectively treated as second class citizen despite law on the Statute books aiming to eliminate such problems.

But it isn't going to happen overnight and it isn't going to happen if you alienate those people who do care enough to debate these issues. This is a discussion forum remember so some people think differently to others but the debate is pointless if it descends quickly into abuse and angry responses (and i know T/c rather unhelpfully edited in his 'wanker' riposte after first posting a much milder reason for not engaging with you so i'm aware that its not only your doings). Peace

 

[Irenick]

This is a discussion forum remember so some people think differently to others but the debate is pointless if it descends quickly into abuse and angry responses (and i know T/c rather unhelpfully edited in his 'wanker' riposte after first posting a much milder reason for not engaging with you so i'm aware that its not only your doings). Peace

So Paulie, TopCat’s ‘wanker’ riposte is ‘unhelpful’; while my anger and genuine feelings of mistreatment will act as a barrier, and alienate rather than endear me to, who; you?

Paulie, your mealy-mouthed defence of TopCat does you credit. Your voice is that of the middle-classes down the decades. Your message is, be grateful for what you have; things will change for the better; but, they’ll move at a speed dictated by others. You may dance your dance; as long as it’s to a tune ‘we’ choose; and, at a step we dictate.

As far as I’m concerned, TopCat, as someone who obviously works in the transport arena, is the one with the issues. He patently resents the capital expenditure his masters need to make to improve their systems. Here is an example of his resentment – “Now all buses in London are accessible (at a huge cost) and most trains are accessible (at a huge cost) and all London taxis are accessible (at a huge cost) things are certainly much better for people in wheelchairs to get about.”

His statement was made with the expressed intention of provoking a reaction; which it did. Since he dressed his statement up as ‘those-good-ol’-privatised-public-transport-providers’ taking a financial caning in order that us ‘ungrateful-fucking-nuisance-cripples’ could disrupt daily travel on public transport; since the premise of his assertions was wrong – namely, neither buses, trains or taxis are accessible as long as people like me have to beg, cajole, plead, lie, threaten or use force in order to go about our legitimate day-to-day activities.

It really is rich something that TopCat has probably taken for granted for decades, namely accessible public transport; is so grudgingly given to disabled people. But then, that’s the nature of his kind, lickspittle Uncle Toms!

 

[TopCat]

In all the years I have been posting here I have only come across one person like yourself who is prepared to so blatantly lie, misrepresent and twist my words. Shocking really.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

Paulie, your mealy-mouthed defence of TopCat does you credit. Your voice is that of the middle-classes down the decades.

Nice to know that I've gone up in the world.

If you seriously want to change the way that people think about your situation, i suggest that you stop doing exactly what you're accusing others of, which is seeing everyone as being part of some collective voice or opinon, rather than seeing them as an individual with individual needs. Where the fuck you get the idea that i'm middle class from is interesting to me - is it because i can write properly perhaps. No assumptions there, oh no.

Try engaging with the debate, rather than spitting venom in all directions. Did you miss the bit where I agreed with you that more needs to be done? Why can you not bring yourself to admit that the situation has improved to a degree? Have you even begun to think some of the issues through fully?

For example, lowered kerbs are great for accessibility of wheel chair users but a nightmare for blind people using sticks - conversely, the raised bumpy paving slabs help blind people to navigate themselves but can be extremely uncomfortable for wheel chair users. Its no good ranting about what's wrong unless you also try to move the debate onto what could and should change.

But tbh, i really can't be bothered trying to engage with some one with such deep rooted presumptions. I'm off to earn my crust, toodle pip.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Trouble is, it sounds like its not a lack of laws, or enforcement of laws here, its a lack of common decency from other passengers that is causing the problem.

Giles..

That's only part of the problem, though. As it is, much of the rolling stock was designed and built pre-the Disability Discrimination Act and has had to be "reverse engineered" to make it "disabled-friendly", a standard it barely meets. Add to the rolling stock problem the poor accessability of a majority of the stations, and the whole situation means that many disabled people don't travel because the obstacles in their way making doing so physically and emotionally exhausting.

 

[ViolentPanda]

So where should I put my luggage?

In a luggage rack, perchance?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Now all buses in London are accessible (at a huge cost) and most trains are acessible (at a huge cost) and all London taxis are accessible (at a huge cost) things are certainly much better for people in wheelchairs to get about.

Apart from the slight problem of station accessability, without which improvements to rolling stock are pretty fucking meaningless.