differences between rural and urban transport

[Epona]

They're 60, not 600. Can't your folks ride a bicycle or something?

You are seriously suggesting that my near-pensioner dad does a daily 80 mile round trip on a bicycle?

Fuck off. Fuckwit.

 

[co-op]

Maybe co-op is getting the term 'rural' confused with 'just out of town so there's a bit of greenery and a few cows'

I was talking about specific places where I have friends living, just outside (a) Axminster in Devon (shopless village called Kilmington) and (b) another little village just outside Stroud in Gloucestershire (can't remember the name just now).

I'm sure that doesn't compare to deepest Surrey, ooh-arr, proper country folk etc etc.

 

[ethel]

Easy, this is how I do it.

http://onelessvan.blogspot.com/2008/01/christiana-bakfiets-trailers.html

try to use that on most countryside roads and you'd be dead within a few months. single track roads, twisty, no visibility.

you really have no clue.

 

[Epona]

I was talking about specific places where I have friends living, just outside (a) Axminster in Devon (shopless village called Kilmington) and (b) another little village just outside Stroud in Gloucestershire (can't remember the name just now).

I'm sure that doesn't compare to deepest Surrey, ooh-arr, proper country folk etc etc.

If you're trying to be sarcastic, you clearly don't know much about Surrey, probably never been beyond Guildford.

 

[pogofish]

how do you carry shopping for 2 miles? or kids?

They are facing-up to that one here in town now - First Bus will only allow you one suppermarket-size carrier-bag per person once the pitiful luggage carrier is full & currently they are telling us we have to decide between wheelchairs/pushchairs as they will no longer cater for both on their services.

Stagecoach also recently upheld its drivers "right" to turf gays off of rural services.

In the face of arrogant cuntishness like this (& lots more over the years), Is it any wonder that I try my very best to avoid putting any money in their pockets?

 

[tarannau]

You are seriously suggesting that my near-pensioner dad does a daily 80 mile round trip on a bicycle?

Fuck off. Fuckwit.

No, but a trip to the local shops or larger town 8 miles or so away is perfectly reasonable. And to be fair, hoping for reliable public transport for a location 40 miles away is pushing your luck.

Apart from that, grow the fuck up captain aggressive - it's perfectly possible to be elderly and mobile. Not every mature type needs a patronising numpty like you to get outraged on their behalf.

 

[kyser_soze]

IN fairness, there does seem to be something of a lack of imagination, or indeed recent historical knowledge, about how folks got around rural areas before cars, even when villages had post offices and other amenities...not to mention the point tarannau makes about lack of ANY kind of transport in some countries...but co-ops answer to sarahluvs question is bang on the money.

 

[Epona]

No, but a trip to the local shops or larger town 8 miles or so away is perfectly reasonable. And to be fair, hoping for reliable public transport for a location 40 miles away is pushing your luck.

Apart from that, grow the fuck up captain aggressive - it's perfectly possible to be elderly and mobile. Not every mature type needs a patronising numpty like you to get outraged on their behalf.

Is that meant for me? I get fed up with middle class liberals preaching to people about what they should eat and how they should live their lives. It's not me being patronising.

And just so you know, I inherited my genetic disabling condition from my mum, I'm 37 and can't walk 2 miles. So don't make assumptions based on age.

 

[ethel]

They're 60, not 600. Can't your folks ride a bicycle or something?

Or, it's not perfect, but this is a small enough country not to have to talk of this being a massive, insurmountable hardship. Folks all around the world manage just fine without a regular bus service - hell, my great, great aunt was still trekking 6 miles a day to collect water and provisions in a far more onerous climate . Well, up until the age of 89 anyway, after which time her 70 year old 'gal' took over.

my dad is 52, he has severe osteoarthrisis

my mum is 54 she's awaiting a knee operation.

the nearest large shops are 3 miles away on roads with poor visibility.

you also have no clue..

we need:

decent public transport

decentralised shops and services

you can't expect all pensioners to walk 3 miles or more to the post office to collect their pensions, pay bills etc.

 

[tarannau]

...not to mention the point tarannau makes about lack of ANY kind of transport in some countries...but co-ops answer to sarahluvs question is bang on the money.

Love the idea that near-pensionable age means that you're some kind of immobile, near hopeless retard unable to do anything other than wait for a bus to sainsburys.

I've got relatives of over 70 who still go hunting every day, shin up a coconut tree in precisely 5 secs flat and generally make me look like the unfit urbanite that I am.

By all means push for better public transport, but this idea that more than a couple of miles journey = the end of the earth for the elderly is false, patronising and forced to me. Some people have genuine mobility issues, others are mainly lazy.

 

[co-op]

You clearly don't know much about Surrey.

Hmmm, I'm not sure your powers of deduction are quite as good as you think...

Anyway, another of my "you can't live here without a car" chums is in Surrey, I get there quite easily by train (change at Guildford), then a couple of miles on the road, a mile or so down a track. Lovely journey, I'd happily live there without a car.

Not quite sure why this is getting personal, I don't think I've been demanding your aged parents go on route marches down A roads, have I? If I have I'd completely forgotten and I apologise.

 

[ethel]

No, but a trip to the local shops or larger town 8 miles or so away is perfectly reasonable. And to be fair, hoping for reliable public transport for a location 40 miles away is pushing your luck.

Apart from that, grow the fuck up captain aggressive - it's perfectly possible to be elderly and mobile. Not every mature type needs a patronising numpty like you to get outraged on their behalf.

yes, possible, not all elderly people are that mobile. sure, some will and do cycle to the shops, but are you suggesting that people are forced to do so? fitness tests? if you are fit enough you have to cycle or walk?

my gran lives in the middle of nowhere and has never driven, she relies on friends and family to help her, but that isn't viable for everyone.

 

[Epona]

Not quite sure why this is getting personal, I don't think I've been demanding your aged parents go on route marches down A roads, have I? If I have I'd completely forgotten and I apologise.

No you haven't, but someone else seems intent on having a go at me personally, my ire is directed solely at that person.

 

[co-op]

try to use that on most countryside roads and you'd be dead within a few months. single track roads, twisty, no visibility.

you really have no clue.

Countryside roads are not at all dangerous, but I do know well how dangerous most country car drivers are. I did have quite a nasty incoident with a badger once, but I was quite pissed at the time so when I look back I think I bear some of the blame.

I probably have a lot more experience of cycling these roads (with and without trailers) than you, so really it's you who don't have a clue.

 

[kyser_soze]

try to use that on most countryside roads and you'd be dead within a few months. single track roads, twisty, no visibility.

you really have no clue.

Got some stats to back that assertion that riding on country roads leads to death in a few months? I would suspect that the per mile/per capita rate of injury and death is FAR higher for urban cyclists than rural.

 

[ethel]

Countryside roads are not at all dangerous, but I do know well how dangerous most country car drivers are. I did have quite a nasty incoident with a badger once, but I was quite pissed at the time so when I look back I think I bear some of the blame.

I probably have a lot more experience of cycling these roads (with and without trailers) than you, so really it's you who don't have a clue.

umm..have you seen the size of farm equipment these days? i've often ended up jumping in hedges as 16 year olds in massive tractors have come flying round the corners. 60 mph speed limit on soem country roads, which is madness.

which roads are these you speak of? every single road in the country? if you live in a flat area with well lit, non twisty roads which have well trimmed hedges, then fair enough, but this is not the case everywhere and you cannot apply the same set of rules to everyone.

 

[pogofish]

IN fairness, there does seem to be something of a lack of imagination, or indeed recent historical knowledge, about how folks got around rural areas before cars, even when villages had post offices and other amenities

No, my grandparents had the local PO/shop & did a hell of a lot of running about themselves - Grandad had his cart for larger goods & the 4 kids were forever being dispatched to some part of the area with goods for whoever could not make it in, either because of age/infirmity, illness or other forms of incapacity.

At the same time, my gran was also the local school dinner lady & although she got a little money for that, much of the rest of it was nothing more than an unpaid social service. I doubt many folk would be willing to do all that today? Maybe is some places like the far north or the Western Isles but otherwise?

 

[Epona]

Hmmm, I'm not sure your powers of deduction are quite as good as you think...

Anyway, another of my "you can't live here without a car" chums is in Surrey, I get there quite easily by train (change at Guildford), then a couple of miles on the road, a mile or so down a track. Lovely journey, I'd happily live there without a car.

Not quite sure why this is getting personal, I don't think I've been demanding your aged parents go on route marches down A roads, have I? If I have I'd completely forgotten and I apologise.

I used to walk the 8 miles (as the crow flies) from the station over the hills, lovely walk if it's done for leisure (even in my days of better joint health it took me 2 hours with some steep climbs!), but alas no longer capable of doing so - and I wouldn't suggest anyone ought to do it daily and then back again. If it were simply a case of a couple of miles and a track it would be more feasible, but it is a lot further. When I was growing up I used to cycle until I was nearly killed on the B road out of town by a lorry taking a corner - no pavement and a steep grass bank for the lorry to pin you against means there's nowhere to escape to, I completely lost my nerve after that.

 

[_angel_]

Love the idea that near-pensionable age means that you're some kind of immobile, near hopeless retard unable to do anything other than wait for a bus to sainsburys.

I've got relatives of over 70 who still go hunting every day, shin up a coconut tree in precisely 5 secs flat and generally make me look like the unfit urbanite that I am.

By all means push for better public transport, but this idea that more than a couple of miles journey = the end of the earth for the elderly is false, patronising and forced to me. Some people have genuine mobility issues, others are mainly lazy.

Good for them. Lots of people have mobility issues (small kids that can't walk that far) What's wrong with expecting half decent public transport outside of London?

This is the twentyfirst century, people aren't going to walk miles and miles just because they can't get public transport. Mainly, they will get cars.

Why should London get first class transport and nowhere else. People in small villages and towns (and even cities) pay taxes as well.

 

[tarannau]

yes, possible, not all elderly people are that mobile. sure, some will and do cycle to the shops, but are you suggesting that people are forced to do so? fitness tests? if you are fit enough you have to cycle or walk?

my gran lives in the middle of nowhere and has never driven, she relies on friends and family to help her, but that isn't viable for everyone.

Nobody is forced to do anything, although she my need to compromise on her expectations and ease of movement if she's not willing to move elsewhere.

I don't really get this debate to a certain extent. Whole communities survived just fine and dandy without the comparatively recent provision of motor transport. Others around the world cope well in far more remote areas with fewer service provisions. The idea that you're 'entitled' to decent public transport, largely because you're accustomed to the convenience of automobiles, in rural areas strikes me as unrealistic.

 

[_angel_]

Nobody is forced to do anything, although she my need to compromise on her expectations and ease of movement if she's not willing to move elsewhere.

I don't really get this debate to a certain extent. Whole communities survived just fine and dandy without the comparatively recent provision of motor transport. Others around the world cope well in far more remote areas with fewer service provisions. The idea that you're 'entitled' to decent public transport, largely because you're accustomed to the convenience of automobiles, in rural areas strikes me as unrealistic.

In the past people lived and worked and had all their family and friends in the same village, there were local shops and services. Now there isn't, hence the need for people to travel.

Why should London get all the transport funding?

 

[Epona]

Yes, others around the world have it far worse. But that doesn't mean we should expect rural poor here to live in similar conditions, and not to care about the state of transport and services in rural areas because others are worse off elsewhere. By that token, the suffragettes shouldn't have fought for the women's right to vote, and we shouldn't campaign against injustice here - because there are others worse off. That's a bit of a crap argument to be fair.

 

[tarannau]

That's not true at all - in past years whole swathes of the youth went to live closer to their work. The same migration still happens all around the world, but the British love of their castles and property values hinders that.

London isn't self funding in public transport terms by any means, but it's way more efficient than 90% elsewhere in the country. Besides if all those Northern monkeys didn't keep coming down here to work then we wouldn't have all the congestion and need for all that public transport. Add in tthe benefits of tourism, wealth and job creation and you could make a strong funding case for improved London public transport - the same's not true elsewhere.

FWIW I'd prefer better public transport as a rule everywhere, but there has to be an acceptance that it's not financially viable in large parts of the country.

 

[ethel]

Nobody is forced to do anything, although she my need to compromise on her expectations and ease of movement if she's not willing to move elsewhere.

I don't really get this debate to a certain extent. Whole communities survived just fine and dandy without the comparatively recent provision of motor transport. Others around the world cope well in far more remote areas with fewer service provisions. The idea that you're 'entitled' to decent public transport, largely because you're accustomed to the convenience of automobiles, in rural areas strikes me as unrealistic.

fyi my gran lives with my parents as my mum is her carer, she uses a walking frame and has lived in the same house since she got married, i very much doubt that she'll be going anywhere soon.


the communities survived as they had amenities. in my parents' village the post office, pub and school have all shut down. unless we return to localisedservices it will be impossible to get people out of their cars.

what you propose is a two tier society with a rural population dependent on their own mobility to survive and a urban society which has good public transport provision.

 

[ethel]

Yes, others around the world have it far worse. But that doesn't mean we should expect rural poor here to live in similar conditions, and not to care about the state of transport and services in rural areas because others are worse off elsewhere. By that token, the suffragettes shouldn't have fought for the women's right to vote, and we shouldn't campaign against injustice here - because there are others worse off. That's a bit of a crap argument to be fair.

indeed.

 

[tarannau]

Yes, others around the world have it far worse. But that doesn't mean we should expect rural poor here to live in similar conditions, and not to care about the state of transport and services in rural areas because others are worse off elsewhere. By that token, the suffragettes shouldn't have fought for the women's right to vote, andhttp://www.urban75.net/ubb/eek.gif we shouldn't campaign against injustice here - because there are others worse off. That's a bit of a crap argument to be fair.

Yep, the trouble of old people in pleasant, rural homes not being able to get regular buses door-to-door is exactly equivalent to the struggle of women in getting the vote.

Is this a new Godwin's law or something?

 

[kyser_soze]

Why should London get all the transport funding?

Got anything to back this statement up with? No, I didn't think so. London is a net contributor region the UKs public wealth (i.e. not all the money London raises in taxation both direct and indirect gets spent here), and if that situation changed and it was reinvested in it's PT networks infrastructure improvements like Crossrail, Thameslink 2000 and the JLE wouldn't have to spend years languishing in Whitehall offices waiting for a Chancellor to sign off the capital expenditure bills.

 

[_angel_]

fyi my gran lives with my parents as my mum is her carer, she uses a walking frame and has lived in the same house since she got married, i very much doubt that she'll be going anywhere soon.


the communities survived as they had amenities. in my parents' village the post office, pub and school have all shut down. unless we return to localisedservices it will be impossible to get people out of their cars.

what you propose is a two tier society with a rural population dependent on their own mobility to survive and a urban society which has good public transport provision.

True. Especially the bit about local services. My friends aunt was, until recently living in a small village in the highlands approximately 40 miles or so from the nearest supermarket!


Expecting her to walk to it is beyond ridiculous.

 

[Epona]

That's not true at all - in past years whole swathes of the youth went to live closer to their work. The same migration still happens all around the world, but the British love of their castles and property values hinders that.

But what happens when people move out of villages into towns for work? The houses don't stand empty, and the volume of cars does not decrease - someone else moves in. In the case of many, castles and property values don't come into it, my parents live in a council house for example. What has happened in their village is that working class people using the bus to go to fairly local industrial jobs have had to move to find work, and the people who move in are affluent city commuters with dreams about their rural idyll and an SUV is parked in front of every house.

This is a much more negative impact on the environment, and it's not the fault of the working class people who have lived there all their lives and don't want to move!

 

[_angel_]

Got anything to back this statement up with? No, I didn't think so. London is a net contributor region the UKs public wealth (i.e. not all the money London raises in taxation both direct and indirect gets spent here), and if that situation changed and it was reinvested in it's PT networks infrastructure improvements like Crossrail, Thameslink 2000 and the JLE wouldn't have to spend years languishing in Whitehall offices waiting for a Chancellor to sign off the capital expenditure bills.

Yorkshire gets a disproportionately lower amount spent on it comparitive to it's size and the numbers of people living there (it was in the YEP all the pounds shilling and pence of it) You don't really need much more proof than the lack of transport compared within west yorkshire to London.

Londoners expect a tube train to leave every few minutes. My local station has three trains an hour to Leeds and I'm pathetically grateful for that, even living near a local station. There are far far fewer local stations in west yorkshire - or anywhere - outside of London.