Did Stalin want to achieve 'communism'?

Discussion in 'theory, philosophy & history' started by mk12, Apr 11, 2010.

  1. gorski

    gorski customised free radical

    Where is evidence he cared only for his power, didn't trust anyone, kept destroying everybody who was even vaguely venerated etc. etc. etc.?!?

    What a joke!
     
  2. ernestolynch

    ernestolynch Banned Banned

    A chicken in every pot, a bullet in every
    trot.
     
  3. gorski

    gorski customised free radical

    1) You need brains in yours...

    2) With brains one doesn't automatically get conscience but one can only hope that one would grow up and grow a conscience... eventually...

    [The above is only valid if one is not trolling, of course...

    In any other case - who cares...]
     
  4. gorski

    gorski customised free radical

    Not easy, I grant you. One actually needs to study the matter a lot and not take SWP word at face value, plus a few other "western gurus on eastern matters"...

    A clue: every time the two principles clashed - guess which one won...

    I doubt there's any such thing as pure determinism, where Humans do not matter...
     
  5. Captain Hurrah

    Captain Hurrah STALINIST Banned


    Perhaps there is much to be said on flaws, and on the ascension of Stalin with a totalist ideology, but to view the vast infrastructural and social programs that occurred in the Soviet Union as being all put into practice for the benefit of his power only is absurd. If that was the case, then surely there would have been easier ways of doing it. You may not agree with it, and indeed find aspects of it abhorrent, but the Soviet Union was a genuine attempt at creating a socialist alternative to capitalism.
     
  6. gorski

    gorski customised free radical

    Sorry, nothing is stated about anything, in your - whatever it is...

    You know: there is no subject and predicate in that sentence, if it is a sentence. You say something about something to make it into a "statement". It seems like a bad Lukács paraphrase...

    If I try guessing... [hard guessing]: did you try bringing the [political] state - [bourgeois] society relation into debate? If so, it's not a one-dimensional phenomenon in Modernity, as it is in sur-real socialism...
     
  7. butchersapron

    butchersapron blood on the walls

    good move to edit that midnight rambling. It was well rocket scientist. As, it goes without saying, are gorski's contributions.
     
  8. gorski

    gorski customised free radical

    No, it wasn't, not under Stalin.

    The highlighted bit: that's the point - the only way he could have achieved it in the USSR at the time was much bloodier than Hitler, in an allegedly [one of] most civilised nation on Earth....

    If total power/control wasn't Stalin's goal, then your statement has merit, in my opinion: he didn't have to do all those purges/pogroms, all those millions vanished, millions sent to Siberia, who knows how many tortured, horrible mistakes during WWII, costing countless millions of lives and so on and on and on...
     
  9. Captain Hurrah

    Captain Hurrah STALINIST Banned

    But be at the helm of a sprawling state with deliberate programs for altering society, and in which millions had enthusiastically helped to build? Even when naked terror was unleashed on the polity and wider society. Power for power's sake doesn't explain the phenomenon of Stalinism.
     
  10. gorski

    gorski customised free radical

    Show me his utopian ideals, his belief in Humanity and measures taken to achieve any of those...

    Altering society, sure but how, to which paradigm etc. etc.???

    As opposed to all the evidence showing what I stated...
     
  11. ernestolynch

    ernestolynch Banned Banned

    Trot loon
     
  12. Captain Hurrah

    Captain Hurrah STALINIST Banned

    From what's been 'stated' so far, you've incoherently tried to come across as a 'fancypants,' and that's about it as far as I can see.
     
  13. ernestolynch

    ernestolynch Banned Banned

    Bring back the purges.
     
  14. gorski

    gorski customised free radical

    Oh, I'm coherent. Unlike you with "reality pushed him to.... do whatever and it's all cool"...:facepalm:
     
  15. Ibn Khaldoun

    Ibn Khaldoun the present is dead, long live the future . . .

    Apologies - for there was a grammatical slight. I simply didn't need to type the word 'that' in second instance.

    The system that prevailed in the USSR, its emergence and many of its features had everything to do with capitalism - imperialism, underdevelopment, petty-capitalism, the emergence of industrial relations, trustification, etc..

    This, in itself, doesn't contradict state capitalist theory (not that I am batting for it), as state-cap theories themselves have been concerned with this qualitative distinction. The crux of things lies elsewhere...

    The bourgeoisie did.

    They had to retain their power, but also needed to secure the development of forces of production, but against the international capitalist system. Once the requisite grounds were there for full-scale capitalism, they were on a losing path.
     
  16. gorski

    gorski customised free radical

    Wrong. Think about it.
     
  17. butchersapron

    butchersapron blood on the walls

    Give it a rest.
     
  18. Ibn Khaldoun

    Ibn Khaldoun the present is dead, long live the future . . .

    But I have already. 'Wrong' isn't an argument.
     
  19. butchersapron

    butchersapron blood on the walls

    Nor is you thinking about it.

    Why did you edit that post from last night?
     
  20. 8ball

    8ball Up to something

    [​IMG]

    Dialectic - someone mention it quick!
     
  21. Ibn Khaldoun

    Ibn Khaldoun the present is dead, long live the future . . .

    Better to draw out that bit later, if anything.
     
  22. Ibn Khaldoun

    Ibn Khaldoun the present is dead, long live the future . . .

    I had been very dialectal.
     
  23. Ralph Llama

    Ralph Llama ERROR 23 : DEFAULT MODE NETWORK COMPROMISED Banned

    I apologise to the international communist movement for my previous comments here. Anybody who saw them should report to municipal protein recycling lab 23 for debriefing.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2018
  24. yield

    yield zero

    Epic

    We aren't all tankies
     
    8ball and NoXion like this.
  25. Ralph Llama

    Ralph Llama ERROR 23 : DEFAULT MODE NETWORK COMPROMISED Banned

    I apologise to the international communist movement for my previous comments here. Anybody who saw them should report to municipal protein recycling lab 23 for debriefing.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2018
  26. NoXion

    NoXion Eat leaden death, demon...

    Shock news! Non-anarchists might not be anti-statists! What other gems of wisdom can you share with us?
     
  27. Ralph Llama

    Ralph Llama ERROR 23 : DEFAULT MODE NETWORK COMPROMISED Banned

    I apologise to the international communist movement for my previous comments here. Anybody who saw them should report to municipal protein recycling lab 23 for debriefing.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2018
  28. Anton

    Anton Well-Known Member

    I think Stalin was none of the above. rather, it was a botch job. the revolution didn't spread, there was no other way to hold on to the gains without extreme authoritarian measures. He achieved a lot, in some ways, but at the cost of immense suffering and destroying the illusion of utopianism. the problem with the Trotskyites is that they have a fantasy utopian excuse for why everything went wrong, but don't own up to the fact that the revolution didn't and couldn't spread, and to use Soviet Foreign policy ie the Red army to spread revolution was not what a war ravaged country wanted.

    Whether or not Stalin's rule was 'state capitalist' or 'socialist' doesn't matter too much. it wont work as a model for a future society.
    unfortunately, these CPGB ML Stalin society and Maoist types seem to love Stalin so much as the saviour of humanity.

    there is something truly weird going on here, where these nutjobs are trying to portray Stalin as hip.
     
    PippinTook likes this.
  29. seventh bullet

    seventh bullet red mullet

    Like it not, Stalin and the Soviet Union aren't viewed with the same goggles in other parts of the world, as they here.
     
    mather likes this.
  30. petee

    petee i'm spartacus

    the OP poses a good question.
    i spent last fall in a reading group working through mieville's October. i came away with two results: 1: crikey, 1917 was complicated; 2: i still don't know what lenin, trotsky, martov thought communism would look like when it arrived.
    nor stalin. if anyone can point to texts where they discuss this - not bolshevism, but communism - i'd appreciate it.
     

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