butchersapron
Bring back hanging
But that doesn't address the changing nature of work itself. Society sure, but not work.
Did rampant capitalism kill 'pride in the job'?
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Orang Utan
Maybe I like the misery
It can't be thatcherism, we have the same thing over here.
I don't know what is wrong with people, they just don't seem to care about the company anymore. All they want is to be paid for the most money for doing as little as possible.
Personally, I blame in on video games
seriously?
Orang Utan
Maybe I like the misery
what about the dirty squalid factories and slums?
ohmyliver
poppin' like a cork
I think Rowntree's Quaker morality might have had a good deal to do with that.
Indeed the Quakers were great, even now that money funds so much good work through all the trusts that were setup. Even things like working out how big a garden workers needed to grown their own veg. It shames modern corporations.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
dennisr
the acceptable face
Its one of those myths isn't it - that it is acase of individualism v collective.
The idea that 'individiualism' is what capitalism promotes. The anti-communist (in the convenient form of stalinist states) propaganda was of a silenced grey mass all looking the same and wearing furry grey hats
The reality is that capitalism crushes individuality- it designates individual success by what you can consume and buy
Lots of the houses built in London in the 18th century and 19th century were very poorly constructed, with bricks with a high ash content and low-grade timber full of knots. Hence buildings collapsing was a fairly common occurrence. Dr Johnson mentions it in his poem 'London', and collapsed or partially collapsed buildings appear in several of Hogarth's pictures.
There were no effective building control standards at all in those days, so speculative builders got away with what they could.
If a lot of railway stations look more scuzzy today than previously, it's partly because there is no one in the chain of command who gives a toss, or there is no clear responsibility for keeping things ship-shape. Same goes for grubby hospital wards.
There were no effective building control standards at all in those days, so speculative builders got away with what they could.
If a lot of railway stations look more scuzzy today than previously, it's partly because there is no one in the chain of command who gives a toss, or there is no clear responsibility for keeping things ship-shape. Same goes for grubby hospital wards.
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
In a way yes, but in a way no. Imo, the modern capitalism and the capitalism-generated state want their subjects to have no loyalty to anyone or anything aside from a loyalty to money.
In past times, people had strong ties to tribe, to family, to religion, etc. Often, these ties would take precedence over obedience to the state, or to the pursuit of money.
As a result, there has been a slow erosion by the state, of these ties. Symptoms of this erosion are things like the ability to compel spouses to testify against each other in court, a denial of 'confessional privilege', etc.
The ultimate goal, is to leave the individual as just that. An individual, cut off from all other competing ties. Because an individual on their own, is much easier to control, than an individual with competing loyalties.
An individual alone is left with nothing to aspire to, apart from their own self advancement. In our society, that means working lots to get lots of money, in order to buy more things for oneself, and to get credit to buy even more, and then to work more to pay for that credit, and the interest payments that it engenders. It is to reduce the individual to nothing more than a cipher within the moneymaking system, with no goal or vision to ever be anything else.
spring-peeper
Well-Known Member
Dunno about elsewhere in the country but hubby says things changed up here in the early/mid 90s and has gotten worse ever since. Mobile phones are an absolute nightmare for workies, the bosses are permenantly(sp?) on the phone hassling you to get to the next job so you don't have TIME to have pride in any job.
It seems round here that they don't want you to know what you're doing as long as you can do it quickly
I couldn't agree more. It's like you are supposed to be available 24-7.
Having staff cuts and expecting the remaining employees to pick up the slack isn't helping much, either.
spring-peeper
Well-Known Member
About the video games part? Yes, wrt to the younger workers.
I see it as part of the problem. We encourage our children to play video games. Never mind spending time outside or helping out with chores. We tend to encourage them to sit there, out of our way, and play video games.
Maybe if we encouraged them to take part in the real world, they wouldn't be sitting at work, killing time until they can get back home to play their video games.
It's all about their personal enjoyment.
That plus the fact that jobs don't last forever and they either get bored and leave, or the company asks them to leave. A job is just a way to get money and they will get paid regardless of the effort they put in.
Orang Utan
Maybe I like the misery
but a job is just a way to get money. i wouldn't work if i didn't have to.
i think you need to think a little more about the myriad other reasons one might have for not enjoying your job and watching the clock til it's time to go home.
i think you need to think a little more about the myriad other reasons one might have for not enjoying your job and watching the clock til it's time to go home.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
I don't think video games are responsible per se, but games/internet/msn is a bigger factor than it was 10 years ago. Just another factor/symptom to weave in.
Orang Utan
Maybe I like the misery
i think video games and the internet have had a positive effect rather than a negative one. i wish i'd had the internet as a teenager. i would have learned how to be sociable a lot earlier and made more friends. and i would have found more things to be interested in.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
But that goes back to the craft point. Time was when the job was more than a way to make money. It was about skill. Apprentice -> journeyman -> craftsman -> master
Why else do you think that the term "apprentice" is still hijacked for YTS equiv schemes?
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
There's lots of positive effects, but lots of negative ones too.
Orang Utan
Maybe I like the misery
i don't think people enjoyed their jobs much as apprentices in the golden olden years either. most of them crippled and blinded themselves learning a skill that barely earned enough to subsist.
ericjarvis
give a feck for the feckless
I think this may be a perception thing.
When somebody does a shoddy cheap and cheerful job that fucks up we notice right away. It's completely forgotten a century down the line. When somebody really does a proper craftsmanlike job it may well be that nobody notices at first. However a hundred years in the future there's more chance of it surviving, or records of it surviving.
I suspect that most people have always been self centred lazy fuckwits.
When somebody does a shoddy cheap and cheerful job that fucks up we notice right away. It's completely forgotten a century down the line. When somebody really does a proper craftsmanlike job it may well be that nobody notices at first. However a hundred years in the future there's more chance of it surviving, or records of it surviving.
I suspect that most people have always been self centred lazy fuckwits.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
For some of the trades that was true. Not all of them though. But if you strip out the extremes and look at how the nature of work generally has changed - it is substantial just in the last 40 years or so.
Wolveryeti
Detty Pig
I think it's a fair comment. Capitalism encourages competition... efficiency savings. The first thing to go is usually nicely trimmed flowerboxes. But then I bet said railway worker had a shorter lifespan and couldn't consume what his latterday equivalent could. It is the price of progress under that particular model. It's just a shame that increased efficiency seems to go hand in hand with more work-hours put in, when the opposite ought to be the case. There's no obvious reason why asking for a raise for being a better worker is within norms, but asking for a few hours off your working week would likely get you short shrift.
spring-peeper
Well-Known Member
I suspect that it may have something to do with the union mentality. "You can't fire me, I'm union."
Why bother doing even a half-arsed job if you know that you will still be getting your paycheque?
spring-peeper
Well-Known Member
No, I disagree.
Video games and the internet have lead to many of our societies malaise. It leads to anti-social behavior. For a while, the internet was the number one reason for divorce. I'm not sure if that has changed. One mate on the internet tends to alienate the other.
Out of curiosity, how do you think that sitting in your room playing Vice City would have helped you become more socially active?
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
I don't think it's this simple, and I think that the divorce rates began to soar back in the Seventies, long before the internet was there to drive a virtual wedge between loving couples.
spring-peeper
Well-Known Member
There were a number of other changes that took place during that time.
To help us out, we turned inside of ourselves and started playing video games in an effort not to deal with the real world. This disconnection from reality has lead to a number of problems, one of which is that it's become all about me!!!!
If it's all about you, then why bother with the outside world? It's a distraction, something keeping you away from the high score or the lastest online gossip. A job keeps you away from your game for hours at a time, but you get the money to keep playing your game. But you really don't care about the job. Just getting through the hours so you can return home.
(you doesn't mean you personally, btw)
spring-peeper
Well-Known Member
That's when the hippies stopped smoking grass and realized just who or what they had married.
Pride in your job and your company still meant something back then.
ohmyliver
poppin' like a cork
well, here's an example, my cousin was massivly obsessed with Half Life in his mid teens, this lead to him playing online, then joining the modding community, and then getting involved in a group making a mod, it's members scattered around the world.
I think you are reading too much into computer games/the interenet as socially disruptive phenomena.
The sort of person who lives for 'sitting in their room playing vice city' would, in pre-computer game times, been involved in similarly solipsistic pleasures.
spring-peeper
Well-Known Member
I'm using video games as an example.
Look at my post count, do you think I'm in a position to judge excessive internet use?
In pre-computer game times, the children who now sit their rooms would be outside playing.
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
...or watching tv.
ohmyliver
poppin' like a cork
That's when the hippies stopped smoking grass and realized just who or what they had married.
Pride in your job and your company still meant something back then.
I think this has much more to do with the growth of the large corporate businesses, with it's depersonalisation and genericisation of work. I also think that this depersonalisation and genercism has spread from the blue collar to the white collar in recent generations.
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