Destroy the Arms Trade Day of Direct Action - 14th September

[dessiato]

Why so proud to not care?

I didn't say I don't care, I can't see the value of this action, nor the point of the rant in the original post. Arms trade will continue whatever action is taken over this event. The protest should be to try to force 'ethical' arms sales, rather than sales purely on the profit motive.

 

[sleeper]

why the wink? are you not intending to smoke a joint after all?

Weeelll...it's part of ma daily routine u see

 

[cemertyone]

Hear, hear, tobes. I would have supported action against poll tax, but cannot support this action against arms trade. I can't see the point in the original post.

Well you must be fucking blind, deaf and dumb then bozzo because YOUR TAX MONEY is being spent to keep the share price of BA systems and the like in profit...
Perhaps your ignorant of the facts ( hardly surprising when you make the comments you do alas) but if you knew anything about the D.C.E.A. then you might know that me and you ( the tax payer) are STILL currently paying for arms that we sold to the regime of Saddam et al.As the British government acted as an " insurer of last resort" that means that all outstanding liability regarding those contracts have to be payed for by me and you...
be fore you come here spouting ill thought out and ignorant verse go an educate yourself on the topics you comment on....wanker.

 

[cemertyone]

I didn't say I don't care, I can't see the value of this action, nor the point of the rant in the original post. Arms trade will continue whatever action is taken over this event. The protest should be to try to force 'ethical' arms sales, rather than sales purely on the profit motive.

oh oh doctor..over here please we got a right silly nutter that needs help....fucking "ethical arms sales"..what you talking about you silly little boy>>>

 

[tobyjug]

Interesting item on BBC News 24 about the guerilla warfare in Nepal. The "rebel" forces appear to be armed with ancient .303 Lee Enfield with a few FN FALS. Not an up to date firearm in sight.

 

[cemertyone]

Interesting item on BBC News 24 about the guerilla warfare in Nepal. The "rebel" forces appear to be armed with ancient .303 Lee Enfield with a few FN FALS. Not an up to date firearm in sight.

That`s true Toby most of the weaponary they use is vey old....however its still quite effective...and when you consider that Jeff Hoon actually " gift aided" British military helicopters ( in defiance of all previous conventions.)....they are apparantely being used for medical assistance..even though they are being used by the Army to kill their own citizens) it actually make you wonder how the so- called " Government remains in the position it is..
I mean with all the SAS men etc out there at the moment training the Nepelse forces you would wonder why such a well trained army is being kept at by such a group of primivitve rebels.....

 

[tobyjug]

Nepelse forces you would wonder why such a well trained army is being kept at by such a group of primivitve rebels.....

Those "primitive rebels" have a rather long history of keeping the British Army at bay.
It is better to live one day as a tiger than a lifetime as a sheep.

 

[cemertyone]

Those "primitive rebels" have a rather long history of keeping the British Army at bay.
It is better to live one day as a tiger than a lifetime as a sheep.

are you quoting that Italian gezzer then????? the one who made the trains run on time..i wonder???

 

[tobyjug]

are you quoting that Italian gezzer then????? the one who made the trains run on time..i wonder???

It is the Gurkha motto.

 

[TreeHouse]

The usual suspects always know when there is a demo or protest, the rest of the population, whether anyone here likes it or not does not give a monkeys fuck.

Yes they do! How come there were tens of thousands and sometimes hundreds of thousands at the anti-capitalist demos of Seattle, Gothenburg, Prague, Nice and Genoa!

So you are saying the general population don't give a fuck about the millions of people who are killed, maimed and become refugees because of wars fuelled by the international arms trade!
http://www.dsei.org

 

[tobyjug]

Yes they do! How come there were tens of thousands and sometimes hundreds of thousands at the anti-capitalist demos of Seattle, Gothenburg, Prague, Nice and Genoa!

So you are saying the general population don't give a fuck about the millions of people who are killed, maimed and become refugees because of wars fuelled by the international arms trade!
http://www.dsei.org

Even hundreds of thousands is less then 1% of the UK population.
Street protest in Britain is very much a minority activity, and you can come up with nothing to dispute that.

 

[poet]

So you are saying the general population don't give a fuck about the millions of people who are killed, maimed and become refugees because of wars fuelled by the international arms trade!
http://www.dsei.org

Yeah, the arms trade fuels war. How silly of me. Hitler just fancied a bit of a laugh, game of footy, night at the pub, but that evil arms trade made him come to power and occupy most of europe. The arms trade made the Rwandan genocide happen, despite the majority of the killing being done with farm tools and cans of petrol. Those Islamic Jihad lads were gonna go down the chippy and hang about the park but the arms trade made them develop radical politics, a hatred fro the west and a belief that martyrdom is a guaranteed path to heaven.

War happens. Whether it's done with a machete, an AK47 knocked together in a school metalwork shop or a high-tech assault rifle, it happens. Attacking the arms trade is pointless - you need to attack the causes of war. If DSEi were to call it a day tomorrow you'd have done nothing to address the real problematic arms trade, one that you're never going to address - blokes in garages and tiny factories across Africa and the middle east cheaply producing AK47s and RPG-9s.

Arms can stop war, given the right political context. Mutually Assured Destruction prevented the cold war from going hot. Switzerland stayed neutral during the war not because of the Nazi gold but because of it's reputation since medieval times as the greatest nation of soldiers, it's huge reserve army and the billions spent on defence. Arms are tools, nothing more. They do what people decide to do with them.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

While i think this thread (and forum) is not the place to be discussing it i would point out you don't need cluster bombs to carry out attrocities, the will to do it and some small arms are plenty.

The same goes for wars, just because you don't have a tank to ride to battle doesn't maen you're going to go join the peace corps.

I'll be on the other thread if you want to discuss it, otherwise my 2 cents have been dispensed and i'll leave you all alone now.

 

[cemertyone]

If DSEi were to call it a day tomorrow you'd have done nothing to address the real problematic arms trade, one that you're never going to address - blokes in garages and tiny factories across Africa and the middle east cheaply producing AK47s and RPG-9s.
.

That`s bollocks our kid. ...and i suspect you know it too...DESI is the outward manifistation of a dirty trade attempting to legitimise itself as a legitimate enterprise...
Now each and every year the policing bill for the event gets bigger and bigger..and that`s an untenable position for the Met police to maintain.
At each and every time our protests have become bigger and bigger and we WILL reach a point where it is simply no longer feasible for them to maintain this..Its simple economics sunshine...
M
Now if the delegets decides to go to Kuwait then fucking fine, but those of us who completely reject their world view ARE GONNA SHUT THIS SHIT DOWN..be under no doubt abut that.
And i`m afraid that the Met, the government and the people who profit from these events are gonna find them selves the targets of the same methodology that closed the hall farm recently...
We are gonna get at and target every company that supplies and does business will the excel cente ( from every one who delivers the milk to excel to ALL the companies doing business with them through out the entire year) and i bet you a funny pound to a dollor that this is their last year...wanna take that bet up mister activist......

 

[poet]

That`s bollocks our kid. ...and i suspect you know it too...DESI is the outward manifistation of a dirty trade attempting to legitimise itself as a legitimate enterprise...

I'm sorry, but you've just shown how little you know about the international arms trade. Multinationals do not concern themselves with knocking out $20 AK47s, it's not worth their while, they're busy selling billions of pounds worth of cutting-edge technology to first world nations. Anyone with any sort of insight into the international arms trade knows that it's a massively decentralised industry owing to the ease at which small arms can be manufactured. The real problematic weapons are being made in places that you lot will never visit. AK47s can be mass-produced in a shop no more well-equipped than a school metalwork room, and so are made by small firms and independent dealers using dirt-cheap third world labour. This trade is almost impossible to stop - many armourers could draw you functional blueprints from memory, a quick google will reveal just how easy it is. A Kalashnikov is mechanically significantly simpler than, say, a lawnmower engine.

And if you shut them down? Then the arms fairs will continue in lots of other countries where they will quite happily shoot you for interfering in their business, british firms and all. I'll happily wager you any sum you like that DSEi will be largely unnafected by protest activity and continue as usual - there were thousands more people trying to smash the G8 and they got their arses kicked, the police will be more than willing and perfectly able to deal with anything the left can throw at them. I was up in Scotland (to non-aggressively protest, may I add) with the same braggards convinced that they'd destroy the G8, all the people I met with any sort of sense (like the Irish anarchists) knew that they'd get no further than the fence.

I've signed petitions and written letters about the abuse of export controls, I'm disgusted at western firms selling arms to Mugabe and his ilk, but I still understand that we need arms for our own defence. You still haven't addressed my point - do you think we do not need an army or some other armed protection service?

 

[cemertyone]

I'm sorry, but you've just.

I've signed petitions and written letters about the abuse of export controls, I'm disgusted at western firms selling arms to Mugabe and his ilk, service?

No shit sherlock .dont get me wrong i dont want to dis-abuse you...but believe me your signing petitions mean fuck all.......its direct action that counts....
And we ARE GONNA SHUT IT DOWN>>>>>>

 

[likesfish]

I doubt you'd even get a viable business building aks at $20
the former warsaw pact and former yugoslavia have massive stockpiles of small arms going cheap
plus theres always the wests last generation of small arms and light weapons

 

[tobyjug]

AK47s can be mass-produced in a shop no more well-equipped than a school metalwork room,

There are 65 million AK47s in circulation, (that is just the Russian built ones).
The AK47 was superceded by the AK74 many years ago.
No-one needs to build new AK47s. In the right place an AK47 costs a pack of Lucky Strikes and a couple of porno magazines.

 

[Pickman's model]

In the right place an AK47 costs a pack of Lucky Strikes and a couple of porno magazines.

so how many have you got stashed?

 

[tobyjug]

so how many have you got stashed?

None, but it would not take long to go and get some. Getting them back into Britain might be a tad difficult, but by no means an insurmountable problem.

 

[Pickman's model]

None, but it would not take long to go and get some. Getting them back into Britain might be a tad difficult, but by no means an insurmountable problem.

i thought you lived in smuggler country so it wouldn't be any difficulty - for you, at least.

 

[tobyjug]

i thought you lived in smuggler country so it wouldn't be any difficulty - for you, at least.

I have a suspicion none of the local smugglers would want anything to do with me.

 

[TreeHouse]

And if you shut them down? Then the arms fairs will continue in lots of other countries where they will quite happily shoot you for interfering in their business, british firms and all. I'll happily wager you any sum you like that DSEi will be largely unnafected by protest activity and continue as usual.

That is no reason to quit campaigning against this vile trade in death! What is needed is to internationalise the campaign against the arms trade!

What really sickens me though is how the police can defend this arms fairs! How on earth can you be so evil as to defend mass murderers! I thought the police were supposed to protect people from mass murderers not defend them. And mass murder and genocide is what the international arms trade is!
http://www.dsei.org

 

[Taxamo Welf]

That is no reason to quit campaigning against this vile trade in death! What is needed is to internationalise the campaign against the arms trade!

What really sickens me though is how the police can defend this arms fairs! How on earth can you be so evil as to defend mass murderers! I thought the police were supposed to protect people from mass murderers not defend them. And mass murder and genocide is what the international arms trade is!
http://www.dsei.org

ooh that was liberal

the police are there 1) to defend the right of the rich to live by exploitation of the poor 2) to defend property, the concept that allows thius exploitation to continue (they have it, you want it) 3) to maintain the status quo - i.e. to be a conservative force that opposes change or upset instinctively and instils within society a desire for security and an acceptance of abject authority (the police) 4) to fight crime.

 

[Taxamo Welf]

and anyway mass murders are rarely bought to book in any significant way. Serial killers maybe.

 

[TreeHouse]

ooh that was liberal

You forget the police like the army are made up of individuals they are not robots they have a right to refuse orders. In Iraq for instance many police have sided with the rebels and refused to take up arms against their own people.
http://www.dsei.org

 

[Blagsta]

Have you posted on these boards before under a different name Treehouse? Or on another board under the name "stonecircle"? You seem familiar...

 

[poet]

There are 65 million AK47s in circulation, (that is just the Russian built ones).
The AK47 was superceded by the AK74 many years ago.
No-one needs to build new AK47s. In the right place an AK47 costs a pack of Lucky Strikes and a couple of porno magazines.

And in the wrong place, you'd never get it through the border. My point is that restricting the arms trade is an impossibility, if I'd said that they're freely traded and moved about internationally it wouldn't have made the point that arms manufacture is a trivial task and not the preserve of multinationals and saying 'well then, we'll have to clamp down on smuggling' would be a valid rebuke to my statement.

The AK47 is frequently preferable to the 74 due to the ready availability of cheap surplus ammunition after better-equipped armies switched to 5.56 and the far greater lethality against body armour.

Treehouse: if you can't argue this on rational terms without making such idiotic statements as "the arms trade is mass murder and genocide" then I'm not going to bother debating with you. You still haven't addressed my point that without organised defensive services we'd inevitably fall into a state of chaos with far more arms being used like, say, Somalia.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

<sniped for now brb>

 

[treelover]

MMMM. yeah...

Have you posted on these boards before under a different name Treehouse? Or on another board under the name "stonecircle"? You seem familiar...