Deputy PMQs today

[agricola]

Which ones, and by how much? And why would increases in taxes on the rich not stop this being necessary?

Well, one would like to see the vast majority of quangos go, ID cards being ended, PFI being stopped where possible (defence training PFI being the most obvious) and far more stringent monitoring of government contracts generally.

To give you a more extreme example so that you can see the point: No matter how much you might dislike, say, Khalid Mahmood, it is never, ever acceptable to call him a 'paki'.

Thats not in any way linked to this, and it would of course be totally unacceptable. My point is that Martin cannot go on and on about being a working class boy made good, when he is in reality a working class boy made bad.

Furthermore (having read Fedayn's post), the criticism of Martin is not so much that he is working-class, but that he is either useless or extremely biased. I dont know if either of you saw the points of order I mentioned before, but he repeatedly defended Harriet Harman lying at the Despatch Box when pressed by the nationalist parties and the DUP. You cannot have an effective Speaker doing that.

 

[Fedayn]

Furthermore (having read Fedayn's post), the criticism of Martin is not so much that he is working-class, but that he is either useless or extremely biased. I dont know if either of you saw the points of order I mentioned before, but he repeatedly defended Harriet Harman lying at the Despatch Box when pressed by the nationalist parties and the DUP. You cannot have an effective Speaker doing that.

The Gorbals Mick jibes were made up before he even started as a speaker, it, was and is, a direct reference to his upbringing being that of a working-class Glaswegian and that's what the likes of Letts, Hyslop and Warner despised.

Martin is corrupt politically yes, not because he's from a working-class area and family ion Glasgow.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Yeah. Let's be ruled by the Army.

What do we want?
Martial Law.

When do we want it?
You tell us, sir.

Coups don't have to come from a military direction, you know.

 

[ViolentPanda]

How does that work then?

Smoothly, in the bizarre world that is the imagination of Zachor.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Thats not in any way linked to this, and it would of course be totally unacceptable.

Fair enough. It was an unfair comparison and I take it back. The phrase you used is loaded with class prejudice, though, and it does you no credit to use it.

 

[Zachor]

How does that work then?

Not just in my imagination <waves to VP>

GB throws money at piss poor projects that look good but which do fuck all in order to get good publicity and hopes that the fact that the project is shit and a waste of money isn't noticed until after the bovine knee jerk labour voters have voted for them at the GE.

All the while the bulk of the money is being squandered.

 

[Fedayn]

GB throws money at piss poor projects

The Iraq War and PPP?PFI to name but a two

All the while the bulk of the money is being squandered.

The Iraq War and PFI/PPP to name but two.

 

[Zachor]

The Iraq War and PPP?PFI to name but a two



The Iraq War and PFI/PPP to name but two.

Up to a point I agree with you. PFI has been a total and utter fucking disaster. It will saddle future generations with untold debt probably more than the lease / lend debt that we incurred during WWII and for what?

As regards the Iraq war I'm coming round to the POV that maybe its a bit too early to make a definitive judgement on the outcome. Theres no denying that it has cost an awful lot of money though.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Up to a point I agree with you. PFI has been a total and utter fucking disaster. It will saddle future generations with untold debt probably more than the lease / lend debt that we incurred during WWII and for what?

As regards the Iraq war I'm coming round to the POV that maybe its a bit too early to make a definitive judgement on the outcome. Theres no denying that it has cost hundreds of thousands of lives though.

Chairman Zachor, 2009

 

[Fedayn]

As regards the Iraq war I'm coming round to the POV that maybe its a bit too early to make a definitive judgement on the outcome. Theres no denying that it has cost an awful lot of money though.

Errr, too early? We've already been told it's game over 'we've won'. It's been an utter fucking disaster for Iraq. Hundreds of thousands of lives lost for what? A country in an absolute mess that has cost untold billions not to metnion the loss of life and families destroyed. And yet another genie unleashed from the bottle.

 

[Zachor]

Errr, too early? We've already been told it's game over 'we've won'. It's been an utter fucking disaster for Iraq. Hundreds of thousands of lives lost for what? A country in an absolute mess that has cost untold billions not to metnion the loss of life and families destroyed. And yet another genie unleashed from the bottle.

And the alternative was.......? Surely not leaving a vicious dictator in place?

I campaigned against the Iraq war and I believe I was right to campaign against it on the grounds that we were being told that there was an imminent WMD danger which turned out to be false. However, I have moral qualms about not doing something about Saddam Hussains Govt in a similar way as I have moral problems with not doing anything about Darfur for Governmental fear of offending the Chiinese Govt.

The question is how many Iraqis would have been killed by Saddams govt as opposed to the deaths caused by the military action?

I still feel that the Iraq war was a 50/50 good and bad thing. What was a total fuck up was not having any post invaision plan which did allow vicious tribal conflicts to start up and fester. With hindsight it may have been better to put more effort into rooting out the Taliban from Afghanistan and stabilising there rather than getting sidetracked by Iraq.

I don't think we've seen the final result of the Iraq action for good or ill.

 

[Fedayn]

And the alternative was.......? Surely not leaving a vicious dictator in place?

Put in place by the US? Why no campaign to rid various other distators? In 1991 Lawrenjce Korb made it clear why the first gulf war took place with his remark that if Kuwait grew carrots we wouldn't care.... As with the Baknans this was never about 'humanitarianism' if it was why no concerns for Rwanda, Burundi, Zimbabwe, East Timor, should I go on?!

 

[Zachor]

Put in place by the US? Why no campaign to rid various other distators? In 1991 Lawrenjce Korb made it clear why the first gulf war took place with his remark that if Kuwait grew carrots we wouldn't care.... As with the Baknans this was never about 'humanitarianism' if it was why no concerns for Rwanda, Burundi, Zimbabwe, East Timor, should I go on?!

I agree with you that these other scummy dictators should have been sorted out as well. Bad mistake on part of US govt to back Saddam.

 

[agricola]

Martin is corrupt politically yes, not because he's from a working-class area and family ion Glasgow.

I agree, but my point is that his upbringing is not why he has been the target of criticism. His predecessor Betty Boothroyd was (obviously) a woman, was of working-class origin and was yet far more respected than Martin is.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The question is how many Iraqis would have been killed by Saddams govt as opposed to the deaths caused by the military action?

I'll answer that one for you. Almost certainly many fewer than 600,000.

And of course it wasn't a simple dichotomy between 'invade' and 'do nothing'.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

I agree, but my point is that his upbringing is not why he has been the target of criticism.

That's not the case with the nickname though, I think.

I'm reminded of Prescott who was often criticised in terms I didn't much like. This didn't mean he wasn't a corrupt buffoon.

 

[Zachor]

I'll answer that one for you. Almost certainly many fewer than 600,000. .

And how many of those deaths were caused as a result of the Allied invasion and how many were the result of mischief making by Iran and others and the release of pent up ethnic and religous tensions? I dont' think that the 'kill allocation' (horrible term I know) is quite as clear cut as some would like.

And of course it wasn't a simple dichotomy between 'invade' and 'do nothing'.

With hindsight maybe diplomacy should have been tried longer but apeasement of dictators just doesn't work. We have the example of the Peace Pledge Union and their fellow travellers in Parliament in the 1930's as a template for that policy.

 

[Fedayn]

I agree, but my point is that his upbringing is not why he has been the target of criticism. His predecessor Betty Boothroyd was (obviously) a woman, was of working-class origin and was yet far more respected than Martin is.

Both Hyslop and Letts made it clear, his accent, his former job as a sheet metalworker made him unfit to be speaker. They both mocked his accent. Letts first termed the phrase 'Gorbals Mick'. It's clear what they referred to. It was never used up here because he was/is from Sprinburn in the north of the city and not the Gorbals which is south of the River Clyde.

I agree that your criticism of him is because of his behaviour and politics, which is why I think you should drop the 'Gorbal Mick' references.

 

[lewislewis]

I'd be interested to know what she said about cutting funding to the Assembly in Wales and the other devolved bodies. It's been suggested that we will be forced to make £500m in 'efficiency savings', this will mean cuts to health and education expenditure, job losses in the public sector and services getting worse when we've just spent over 10 years building them up to a reasonable standard.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

With hindsight maybe diplomacy should have been tried longer but apeasement of dictators just doesn't work. We have the example of the Peace Pledge Union and their fellow travellers in Parliament in the 1930's as a template for that policy.

This is like debating with a badly informed sixth-former. Are you seriously suggesting that Bush and Blair saved us from a Third World War? Please give specific examples to illustrate the relevance of Hitler to this debate.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

We have the example of the Peace Pledge Union and their fellow travellers in Parliament in the 1930's as a template for that policy.

Godwin. I win.

 

[Zachor]

Godwin. I win.

Not a Godwin I haven't mentioned the nazis

 

[littlebabyjesus]

You are right, though, Zachor. We appeased an expansionist militaristic leader with supernatural megalomanic delusions for far too long.

We should never have tolerated George Bush.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

You may be in the sixth form now, Zachor, but you're not too old to to be given lines.

Write out 100 times:

"Wooooooaaaa, Hilter" is not an argument.

 

[Zachor]

This is like debating with a badly informed sixth-former. Are you seriously suggesting that Bush and Blair saved us from a Third World War? Please give specific examples to illustrate the relevance of Hitler to this debate.

Not specifically a Hitler reference more reference to a current of quite understandable pacifism. There was a desire in the 20/30's for 'no more war' and this was quite understandable in the context the aftermath of the slaughter of WW1 however, this desire for peace at any cost crippled the chance of standing up to dictators (not just Hitler but Stalin, Mussolini, Franco and the Japanese) and meant that the democracies only just escaped destruction by the skin of their teeth.

I'd rather fight, have a slightly uneasy concisence and be alive than be a dead pacifist. I used to be a pacifist but I found that although its a noble desire isn't 100% practical as a political philosophy.

 

[agricola]

I'd be interested to know what she said about cutting funding to the Assembly in Wales and the other devolved bodies. It's been suggested that we will be forced to make £500m in 'efficiency savings', this will mean cuts to health and education expenditure, job losses in the public sector and services getting worse when we've just spent over 10 years building them up to a reasonable standard.

She flat out denied there would be cuts, then followed that with a frankly nonsensical point about the Government having to spend money wisely. As I said in the OP, at the end of the session the MP who asked the question - the SNPs' Angus Robertson - raised a point of order making the not unreasonable point that she should not be allowed to lie so openly in the house, and was backed by a DUP MP and Plaid's Elfyn Llwyd (who asked why, if they werent cutting funding, Brown had contacted Morgan to tell him of the cuts).

Martin pretended to believe they were trying to get an answer to the question again, and in response to Llwyd's point of order said something like "Well, you should ask the First Minister"... it was frankly astonishing.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Not specifically a Hitler reference more reference to a current of quite understandable pacifism. There was a desire in the 20/30's for 'no more war' and this was quite understandable in the context the aftermath of the slaughter of WW1 however, this desire for peace at any cost crippled the chance of standing up to dictators (not just Hitler but Stalin, Mussolini, Franco and the Japanese) and meant that the democracies only just escaped destruction by the skin of their teeth.

I'd rather fight, have a slightly uneasy concisence and be alive than be a dead pacifist. I used to be a pacifist but I found that although its a noble desire isn't 100% practical as a political philosophy.

Yet again, you set up a false dichotomy : 'Be a pacifist' or 'invade Iraq'.

Your logic is laughable.

 

[Zachor]

You are right, though, Zachor. We appeased an expansionist militaristic leader with supernatural megalomanic delusions for far too long.

We should never have tolerated George Bush.

A wiser leader than Bush might have a) kept the diplomatic route open and worked harder to isolate Saddam b) would have had more accurate intelligence b) if it had gone to a military solution would have had a much better post invasion plan.

So I partially agree with yo that Bush was part of the problem.

 

[Zachor]

Yet again, you set up a false dichotomy : 'Be a pacifist' or 'invade Iraq'.

Your logic is laughable.

If you took the time to read my posts rather than jerk those knees you would have seen that I have said that maybe there should have been more of a diplomatic effort done to deal with Saddam before the Allies went in.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

If you took the time to read my posts rather than jerk those knees you would have seen that I have said that maybe there should have been more of a diplomatic effort done to deal with Saddam before the Allies went in.

I reject the idea that 'the Allies' should have even been considering such a disastrous act as invading Iraq. That does not make me a pacifist any more than my saying that we who despised Bush should not under any circumstances have invaded the USA.