Deport sucide bombers' families?

[Jangla]

I was serious, and nobody has explained why it *wouldn't* work other than hurling hyperbole.

It has been known for years that one of the ways Hamas motivates bombers is by promising extravagant rewards to the bombers' families. If rewards are an incentive, then punishments should be a disincentive.

Riiiiiight, so you think that someone who is intent on killing innocent people would think twice if their family would be deported? Get a grip ffs; one of the suspects left behind a wife and child - do you honestly think they give a shit about the families they leave behind?

 

[Thora_v1]

I was serious, and nobody has explained why it *wouldn't* work other than hurling hyperbole.

Well, punishing suicide bomber's families hasn't worked in Israel.

And where would we deport the families to? If they're British citizens, why would the country of their grandparents' origin accept them?

 

[knopf]

Make them wear some sort of sign...

Brand some sense into 'em, I say.

 

[R.I.C.O.]

Well, punishing suicide bomber's families hasn't worked in Israel.

And where would we deport the families to? If they're British citizens, why would the country of their grandparents' origin accept them?

I sense a knee-jerk reaction coming on from Passepartout.....

 

[Pickman's model]

I was serious, and nobody has explained why it *wouldn't* work other than hurling hyperbole.

It has been known for years that one of the ways Hamas motivates bombers is by promising extravagant rewards to the bombers' families. If rewards are an incentive, then punishments should be a disincentive.

you've clearly never enountered something we have in this country called "laws". the "law" you propose would fall foul of other "laws" and a place of adjucation, the european court of human rights, would strike down such a "law" even should it find its way onto the statute books.

 

[Pigeon]

I was serious, and nobody has explained why it *wouldn't* work other than hurling hyperbole.

Dat's because it's toooooooooooo dumb to warrant explication.

But, as I'm in a good mood, I'll try to explain it as simply as I can.
:

Imagine you believe that the religious group to which you belong is victim of a worldwide Zionist-Crusader campaign of harassment, intimidation, genocide, call it what you will. And your anger at that belief is such that you're prepared to take your own life, along with those of random strangers, to make your point.

You then hear that the Government of the country in which you live- a fully paid up member of the Zionist-Crusader alliance you abhor - proposes a series of indiscriminate collective punishments against the members of the community you imagine your actions to be defending.

D'you see where we're going here...?

Oh, and while we're at it, given that the suicide bombers appear to be British born Muslims, could you possibly explain where you think their families should be deported to? Possibly the same island the Tories wanted to use for an asylum screening centre?

 

[tbaldwin]

Well, punishing suicide bomber's families hasn't worked in Israel.

How on earth do you know whether the policy has made things worse or better?
The truth is you dont but your conclusion comes from the way you look at the issue in the first place.

 

[maomao]

It has been known for years that one of the ways Hamas motivates bombers is by promising extravagant rewards to the bombers' families. If rewards are an incentive, then punishments should be a disincentive.

Well punishing the families has only served to stir up more problems in Israel. Human behaviour cannot be explained on stimulus response terms.

 

[tbaldwin]

you've clearly never enountered something we have in this country called "laws". the "law" you propose would fall foul of other "laws" and a place of adjucation, the european court of human rights, would strike down such a "law" even should it find its way onto the statute books.

Spoken like a true class war anarchist.

 

[Pigeon]

Spoken like a true class war anarchist.

An anarchist, by definition, can't know that laws have been passed?

 

[Random]

How on earth do you know whether the policy has made things worse or better? The truth is you dont but your conclusion comes from the way you look at the issue in the first place.

Because numerous organisations, including Israeli human rights organisations, have shown how the politics of collective punishment have immiserated masses of people, allways with the reason of increasing security. Do you have any reason to say that the policies have worked? You seem pretty fond of shooting your mouth off without evidence, so please be less snappy when other peoplestate opinions that do have reasonable backing.

 

[tbaldwin]

An anarchist, by definition, can't know that laws have been passed?

Crikey who said that, sounds preety silly.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

you've clearly never enountered something we have in this country called "laws". the "law" you propose would fall foul of other "laws" and a place of adjucation, the european court of human rights, would strike down such a "law" even should it find its way onto the statute books.

He was busy only the other day on another thread telling me how 'western values' need to be defended against Islamists. On that occassion by blocking their immigration. Now he's taken the logical next step is all. How collective punishment fits in with the home of the Enlightenment is something only he understands.

 

[Pigeon]

Crikey who said that, sounds preety silly.

Sure do!

 

[Random]

Well the enlightenment, in its political practise by Western states, was all about increasing control and security for a certain enlightened few.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

Well the enlightenment, in its political practise by Western states, was all about increasing control and security for a certain enlightened few.

Can't agree with you there Random. At the time the bourgeoisie was a rising, revolutionary class. Course these days the only ones defending those basic freedoms that the Enlightenment championed are us poor saps on the left.

 

[Passepartout]

ok -- loads of personal attacks (including the most insulting of all -- calling me a Zionist!) -- and a couple of attempts to provide thoughtful refutations (thanks for those). I'm not convinced, but I'm done with this thread -- this topic is probably a little too emotional for rational discussion, and in honesty I must admit that I am perhaps too emotional in being frustrated by wanting to lash out at the killers who are already dead. Much the way I felt about the 911 killers, too. Sorry to trouble all of you.

 

[Random]

At the time the bourgeoisie was a rising, revolutionary class.

But still a very small few, who wanted mainly to defend their right to hold property. I agree that this discourse took on a different meaning when social movements (the servants who were never supposed to overhear) started to use it, but note that I was talking about the 'enlightened' aspects of government policies, which have always fitted into the agenda of a property owning, security minded class.

But let's not derail into a grand historical debate... i'm too interested in what numpty thing thbawldwin will say next

 

[nightowl]

the independent has an article on suicide bombers this morning illustrated by a photograph of a female suicide bomber with her child who only looks a few years old. the argument about family pressure is therefore bollox as well as obscene

 

[Ryazan]

I thought thtis thread would have been binned by now.

 

[Roadkill]

I'm not convinced, but I'm done with this thread -- this topic is probably a little too emotional for rational discussion, and in honesty I must admit that I am perhaps too emotional in being frustrated by wanting to lash out at the killers who are already dead. Much the way I felt about the 911 killers, too. Sorry to trouble all of you.

It's no 'too emotional for rational discussion.' Your original suggestion wasn't really up for rational discussion.

Why not? Well:

1. Collective punishment is unacceptable in any form.

2. Anyone who's so far into religious fanaticism as to be up for blowing themsleves up isn't going to be swayed by soemthing like that.

3. In the case of at least one of the London bombers, their family had no idea what was going on. How can you deport them for something they knew nothing about and in no way can be held responsible for?

4. Where are you going to deport them to, especially if they happen to be British citizens?

5. What sort of impact is a measure like that going to have on wider community relations? The last thing that's needed right now is something like your suggestion to raise tensions even higher.

So where does that leave you?

 

[Epicurus]

I was serious, and nobody has explained why it *wouldn't* work other than hurling hyperbole.

It has been known for years that one of the ways Hamas motivates bombers is by promising extravagant rewards to the bombers' families. If rewards are an incentive, then punishments should be a disincentive.

You are entitled to your view but it doesn’t make any sense

In Palestine the house of the family of suicide bombers are demolished and that hasn’t made any difference has it.

And since when has the actions of one person been the responsibility of others?

 

[HarrisonSlade]

Suicide bombers may not care for their own lives... but even they still love their families. If the first response to the suicide bombers' attack is to deport their families -- down to the most distant relatives -- the next confused, disaffected, easily-manipulated teenagers coming down the suicide bomber assembly line might give second thought to their ghoulish plans.

It's not fair, but it would work.

First of all what if a suicide bomer doesn't have a family? What if a suicide bomber's family lives abroad? What if the family lives here and refuses to go? Secondly why would deporting a distant relative affect a suicide bomber? A disaffected easily maninpulated teen would get even more pissed off because he has just been thrown out of the Country he was probably born in. And if a teenager was thinking about blowing himself to smithereens, I would think that his bravery would undermine anything else he maybe thinking to do the deed.

I really don't think you've thought it through much have you?

 

[tbaldwin]

In Palestine the house of the family of suicide bombers are demolished and that hasn’t made any difference has it.

And since when has the actions of one person been the responsibility of others?

How do you know what difference its made ? are you omnipotent ?.

Precision punishemnt is always best. But not always that easy is it.
A lot of Geramns were killed in WW2 who didnt support Hitler etc..

 

[Pigeon]

I'm not convinced, but I'm done with this thread -- this topic is probably a little too emotional for rational discussion...

No. It's a little too stupid for rational consideration.

There's a difference.

 

[parallelepipete]

Which of the

confused, disaffected, easily-manipulated teenagers

would give a monkey's about their family if they're in that mental state already?

Have you considered simply making them wear tweed and plus-fours, and a handlebar moustache all day to humiliate them instead?

It could hardly be a sillier idea...

 

[SubZeroCat]

I despair sometimes.

I despair often.

 

[tbaldwin]

Which of the

would give a monkey's about their family if they're in that mental state already?

Have you considered simply making them wear tweed and plus-fours, and a handlebar moustache all day to humiliate them instead?

It could hardly be a sillier idea...

Some do it partly to make families proud, maybe theyd reconsider?
Tweed is a good idea though.

 

[Pigeon]

How do you know what difference its made ? are you omnipotent ?.

Possibly he did this experiment: "Has demolishing the homes of suicide bombers' families eradicated the phenomenon of suicide bombing?"

 

[tarannau]

How do you know what difference its made ? are you omnipotent ?.

Precision punishemnt is always best. But not always that easy is it.
A lot of Geramns were killed in WW2 who didnt support Hitler etc..

Bit rich that, especially from the man who keeps coming up with such gross and unsupported oversimplifications like the 'middle clases are more racist than the working class' and believes he immediately knows the opinions of all the 'liberal left.' Worra hypocrite eh....

I fail to see the relevance of comparing Germans dying in a conventional conflict over 50 years ago with a civilian bombing campaign. You're stretching further than the bloke off the Fantastic Four...