Demo against BNP conference in Blackpool

[durruti02]

sorry mate but you're not living in the ral world, immigrants come here for lots of reaons ... to travel (backpackers), to join family and to study

some come to work, usually leaving behind family and friends, the reason being that they are living in poverty in their own country and they want to feed their children

the minimum wage, obscenely low as it is does have the effect of protecting those at the very bottem of the wage strata, which represents a large group of the working class, the vast majority of the middle income working class work in public sector roles, nurses, dinnerladies, binmen

also protected by local authority policy and hard won union recognition

the most recent influx of immigrants has been european white collar workers or polish/east european tradesmen

this has undoubtably had an impact on british tradesen, my mate is selling up his half million house in brixton to move to wales because he cant get enough work, plumbers are no longer able to charge a ton an hour, black cab drivers are feeling the pinch in their surrey households

the issues you raise about casualisation are valid, but are nothing to do with immigration

and you say that if there were no jobs for them then immigrants wouldnt come here

regardless of the fact that many employers are terrified of employing immigrants because of the risk of prosecution should they turn out to be illegal ...

then how would you stop them being employed, ban british companies from employing foreigners (oh, they already did), pull out of the eu, would you give up your freedom of movement ... why should we be able to go and work in poland if its not reciprocated

where do you draw the lines, at the artificial borders that designate states or further afield ... im an economic immigrant to london from the north

should i have been stopped half way down the m1 because im in danger of taking some of the gravy train of the south east

these supposedly leftist arguments against immigration are no different to the crap weve been hearing from the right for years, from enoch powell, through to the bnp ... i wonder if many promoting them are old (or poor) enough to remember how these arguments translated onto the streets

i grew up wondering why every asian shop in white areas of bradford was boarded up and covered in swastikas

the anti-immigration line ALWAYS translates to an anti-immigrant line as it filters down to the streets

immigration is a fact of the human experience, how do you think you got here? get used to it, deal with it and lets work out how the working class from all countries can fight for liberation both nationally and internationally

i agree with much of it but i think that your experiance of the w/c racsim has blinded you to the way immigration is being used and that it is a genuine and proper response for people to react against that.

i totally agree that we must not allow it to become racist but you i note do not deny that immigration AS PART OF NEO LIBERALISM has a real effect.

i would argue very strongly it is totally wrong to oppose immigration OUTSIDE OF ARGUING AGAINST NEO LIBERALISM but equally it is wrong to deny the role of immigration .. and yes that means from wherever .. yes it is casualisation ( whihc is of course just neo liberalism) but the bosses could NOT do what they do WITHOUT the use and threat of a cheap labour supply so iwould argue you are wrong to say it is just about casualisation NOT immigration .. the 2 things are intregally linked

it is another basic of trade unionism that without the unions being able to control labour supply they are fked/impotent. this is a fundamnetal fact that all discussion of immigration must take on board

but what has gone wrong is that we are scared to comment at all on immigration and so the racists have a monopoly .. this is VERY dangerous

cheers for well reasoned response ..

 

[durruti02]

sorry mate but you're not living in the ral world, immigrants come here for lots of reaons ... to travel (backpackers), to join family and to study

some come to work, usually leaving behind family and friends, the reason being that they are living in poverty in their own country and they want to feed their children

immigration is a fact of the human experience, how do you think you got here? get used to it, deal with it and lets work out how the working class from all countries can fight for liberation both nationally and internationally

this all i disagree with .. the vast majority of immigrants in the last few years have come here due to neo liberalism and its drving down of wages ... immigration as with everything on our society is NOT a given NOT a fact of life .. it is down to economics .. currently neo liberalism

are you saying it is GOOD that people are forced to immigrate?

i am a sincere imternationalist but think that everything starts at home, that we think global and act local .. this is where the left have gone wrong .. they ignore the local .. and looking at the rise of not jus the bnp but racism and prejudice in general, at all of our peril

 

[Das Uberdog]

Reread what you have posted and the manner its been posted in, Whose spewing vitriol ?

So can you tell bad black people from their dress ?

I'll ask you a question; can you READ fuckhead?

my DAS has dug himself a hole!! what a tosser .. no wonder the left are fked!!

Ditto, dipshit. Do you deny that there is a chav subculture in this country? Because that's what the issue is.

 

[durruti02]

I'll ask you a question; can you READ fuckhead?



Ditto, dipshit. Do you deny that there is a chav subculture in this country? Because that's what the issue is.

you assume w/c kids are racist/ rightwing .. typically SWP .. didn't one of yor CC talk about estate scum?

 

[Das Uberdog]

Quote me, analyse my comments and counter arguments. You're a fucking moron.

 

[audiotech]

you assume w/c kids are racist/ rightwing .. typically SWP .. didn't one of yor CC talk about estate scum?

Yeah, and some scum on my estate recently decided it would be OK to trash my motorcycle and also my neighbours. Both of us who need transport to work and earn some fucking money. But there again you would say they were nice working class boys at heart who only needed to be understood. Fucking wankers in my book, as are you and treelover for defending scumbags who prey on their communities.

 

[durruti02]

Yeah, and some scum on my estate recently decided it would be OK to thrash my motorcycle and also my neighbours. Both of us who need transport to work and earn some money. But there again you would say they were nice working class boys at heart who only needed to be understood. Fucking wankers in my book.

there are clearly some w/c scum .. but DAS identifies by appearence .. do you and him therefore say all blacks are muggers? i know you would not

p.s. so shall we lock up all those kids and beat them? short sharp shock? i thought you might have some idea that people are products of society to an extent ..

 

[durruti02]

"people who look a certain way to have certain cultural stereotypes based mainly upon class"

you couldn't make it up!! except when you know its from a SWPer

 

[audiotech]

there are clearly some w/c scum .. but DAS identifies by appearence .. do you and him therefore say all blacks are muggers? i know you would not

p.s. so shall we lock up all those kids and beat them? short sharp shock? i thought you might have some idea that people are products of society to an extent ..

I'm working class and I don't go around preying on people. If I'd have caught them I would have thrashed them to an inch of their lives. As for your comment on muggers? Don't talk like a cunt.

 

[treelover]

thats crap, but why extrapolate so it is all 'estate scum', can you imagine the SWP response if after one person got mugged by a black person, he she went around writing that then 'all black people were muggers'. Its looks mightily like the one rule for us, another for them scenario.

Yeah, and some scum on my estate recently decided it would be OK to trash my motorcycle and also my neighbours. Both of us who need transport to work and earn some money. But there again you would say they were nice working class boys at heart who only needed to be understood. Fucking wankers in my book.
Reply With Quote

 

[cutandsplice]

Yeah, and some scum on my estate recently decided it would be OK to trash my motorcycle and also my neighbours.

Well, if you act like you do on here, in real life, it's a wonder, you have anywhere to live.

 

[audiotech]

Well, if you act like you do on here, in real life, it's a wonder, you have anywhere to live.

And what makes you so special?

I've just read some of your previous posts btw and you sound like a right prat in "real life" to be honest.

 

[Das Uberdog]

"people who look a certain way to have certain cultural stereotypes based mainly upon class"

you couldn't make it up!! except when you know its from a SWPer

Hilarious that in your only attempt to actually quote me you didn't even include the beginning of the sentence and cut it out before the end too.

Fuck, that quote doesn't even make grammatical sense. You're a fucking moron, and if you don't think a chav subculture exists which is generally associated with yobbery, thuggery and petty crime then again, you're a fucking moron and I don't think that anyone here with half a brain will back you up.

btw, for those wondering what the original quote looks like it's here;

Are you saying that the BNP don' target certain cultural stereotypes? Was Marx just being a bourgeois wanker when he coined the term 'lumpenproletariat'? What about the expressionists in the Weimar Republic and their depictions of the ex-soldiers taking up patriotism and nationalism with zeal?

Case in point, I've been punched enough times by people who look a certain way to have certain cultural stereotypes based mainly upon class. Not that I don't understand varying reasons for deviant social behaviour, or what society may deem as 'deviant' social behaviour, but if you deny that there is a 'chav' subculture in this country you're not only denying reality you're also going against the general social analysis of Britain's left as well.

 

[audiotech]

thats crap, but why extrapolate so it is all 'estate scum', can you imagine the SWP response if after one person got mugged by a black person, he she went around writing that then 'all black people were muggers'. Its looks mightily like the one rule for us, another for them scenario.

People who make lives a misery for communities on estates are scum. Those that involve themselves in street robberies whether black, or white are also scum. You, in defending them, sound like some middle-class arse who doesn't know what their talking about.

 

[JHE]

Chavs

...if you don't think a chav subculture exists which is generally associated with yobbery, thuggery and petty crime then again, you're a fucking moron and I don't think that anyone here with half a brain will back you up.

Ah, you mean the "scum from the estates", as dear old Julie Waterson called them - and, indeed, white scum from the estates - because, as we all know, you don't get delinquent youth kulcha among non-white folk. Oh, no. It'd be Ray Cyst to say otherwise.

 

[smokedout]

this all i disagree with .. the vast majority of immigrants in the last few years have come here due to neo liberalism and its drving down of wages ... immigration as with everything on our society is NOT a given NOT a fact of life .. it is down to economics .. currently neo liberalism

are you saying it is GOOD that people are forced to immigrate?

i am a sincere imternationalist but think that everything starts at home, that we think global and act local .. this is where the left have gone wrong .. they ignore the local .. and looking at the rise of not jus the bnp but racism and prejudice in general, at all of our peril

firstly i do not accept that levels of racism have risen amongst the w/c, quite the opposite

the bnp fluked a few seats in barking, but the reality is that things have progressed drastically since the days when black footballers couldnt run onto the pitch without being subject to vile abuse

i dont believe its good or bad that people emigrate, for some, eg east europeans it is to live a far better life, for others, eg asylum seekers it is to survive, for many others, including the hundreds of thousands who leave this country every year it is just for a change, to work, to study, to experience something new

migration may not be a fact of life per se, but it has been a fact of life since human beings first emerged ... it strikes me as fairly ridiculous to suggest otherwise, and with the increase in technology, globalised relationships and ease of travel it aint likely to stop

it can only be stopped by authoritarian measures, ranging from detention centres to gas chambers, for the left to develop an anti-immigrant line feeds into such authoritarian tendencies

as an internationalist then perhaps you should remember that those coming here and forcing down wages (which is not that strong an argument in itself imo) also have to live on those forced down wages ... they aint being paid more

what makes the indigenous population so special that they are presumed to suffer more on these wages than the lucky immigrants

the neo-liberal right will use immigration to force down wages just like it uses everything else, including the fact women have children

but that should not mean that the left should ever take an anti-immigrantion line, and the right wing within the working class should be challenged as the class traitors they are, not appeased

 

[smokedout]

People who make lives a misery for communities on estates are scum. Those that involve themselves in street robberies whether black, or white are also scum.

when i was 18 and living in a nightshelter i knew people who involved themselves in street robberies

they werent scum, they were very screwed up kids who had often lived pretty horrific lives of violence and abuse

 

[Das Uberdog]

Ah, you mean the "scum from the estates", as dear old Julie Waterson called them - and, indeed, white scum from the estates - because, as we all know, you don't get delinquent youth kulcha among non-white folk. Oh, no. It'd be Ray Cyst to say otherwise.

Have you ever said anything relavent in your whole, miserable, unproductive and pathetic life?

And btw, no I don't mean 'the scum from the estates' - I have no idea where these lads come from, they may well have been middle-class chavs, but they didn't look initially like the sort I'd expect to join in with Muslims and black people to chant against the BNP and then show enough enthusiasm and support to leave details for UAF. That's, in fact, is all I ever said; so what this discussion is really about is you failing to recognise there is a 'chav' subculture in this country, a subculture as recognised as punk, mod and rocker, even with it's own dictionary definition in the OED.

 

[JHE]

Have you ever said anything relavent in your whole, miserable, unproductive and pathetic life?

Do we know each other?

BTW, note the spelling, you daft shouty Trot: relevant

 

[Das Uberdog]

btw, note the relevence you pedantic arsewipe; 'not'.

 

[JHE]

btw, note the relevence you pedantic arsewipe; 'not'.

And you still can't get it right! It's 'relevance', tosspot. R-E-L-E-V-A-N-C-E

 

[HarrisonSlade]

Demo against BNP conference in Blackpool

North West Region UAF together with Blackpool Fylde and Wyre TUC have called a demonstration against the British National Party holding their badly-named Annual Conference in Blackpool.

I loathe and despise the BNP to the hilt, but as the North West is one of the most likely places for Manefacturers closing down, hasn't this particular branch of the TUC got anything better to do than shout at a bunch of racists, and is it really a positive way of spending money given to them by their members, many who are probably wondering if they, themselves are going to be thrown on the scrapheap?

 

[audiotech]

when i was 18 and living in a nightshelter i knew people who involved themselves in street robberies

they werent scum, they were very screwed up kids who had often lived pretty horrific lives of violence and abuse

I was once a kid who has experienced a fair share of violence and abuse. I didn't decide to fuck up other people's lives though.

 

[cockneyrebel]

Uberdog why do you debate on here if it winds you up so much? What's the point of coming on here and throwing out so much abuse, threatening people and even comparing other left groups that you see as sectarian as as bad as fascists. Read grouchos post, you're being totally over the top. At worst you could say that what you see as sectarian groups are irrelevant to the working class. Having said that the SWP are irrelevant to 99.9% of the working class as well.

But surely you've got better things to do with your life than get so angry on a web board? Do something politically constructive, or if it's in your free time go out and enjoy yourself.

In terms of what you've said I think you've phrased it badly. The thing is with "chav culture" is that the term is used in a lot of ways, partly by the establishment and middle class liberals as a term of anti-working class abuse. Actually the BNP gets a fair amount of support in more middle class areas and from the petty bourgeois.

Also I do think you're on dodgy ground in terms of a stereotype of who would and wouldn't support the BNP.

Out of curiousity would you have as much scorn for rude boy culture as you would for chav culture?

And by the way I agree with MC5 that there are obviously scum out there on estates and in the working class (I've met enough in my time), but the same goes for the middle/upper classes as well of course.

 

[smokedout]

you want a medal

people deal with things in different ways, no-one is scum

 

[audiotech]

you want a medal

people deal with things in different ways, no-one is scum

Make it gold please so I can get a good price for it.

People do deal with things in different ways. Some rob OAP's for example. These are scumbags of course.

 

[mk12]

btw, for those wondering what the original quote looks like it's here

Yes, it's as patronising and offensive as the first time you said it. You really are something else.

 

[HarrisonSlade]

Make it gold please so I can get a good price for it.

People do deal with things in different ways. Some rob OAP's for example. These are scumbags of course.

But I am a scumbag. Doesn't mean I go around robbing OAPS

 

[smokedout]

ive changed my mind anyway, some people are scum

adolf hitler, jo stalin, peter sutcliffe, george galloway, fair enough theyre scum

but most teenage muggers are just damaged, lost kids whove made some bad choices

 

[JHE]

ive changed my mind anyway, some people are scum

adolf hitler, jo stalin, peter sutcliffe, george galloway, fair enough theyre scum

Ooo errr! The things people post when they've got pissed off with Social Workers!

but most teenage muggers are just damaged, lost kids whove made some bad choices

I don't really disagree, but the various bad influences have made some of them nasty ruthless violent buggers who make that particular bad choice.