Demo against BNP conference in Blackpool
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Taxamo Welf
kebagels pls
why can't you read my posts without attaching normative positons to them?smokedout said:
understanding the interests of the state --------> shares the interests of the state
understanding anti-immigrant fears--------> is anti-immigration
Taxamo Welf
kebagels pls
all anarchists agree the economy has never defined human good.smokedout said:
BTW 'not good at inelligence' would be grammatically incorrect, unless you meant not good at intelligence gathering/spying.
Taxamo Welf
kebagels pls
you'd attacked a post-fascist anti-immigrant group in the same way that you'd attack a racial determinist?smokedout said:
Fuck me.
The only thing you're attacking is the drinks cabinet mate.
youve lost me, you want to address anti-immigrant fears, but do nothing about immigration
so how do you recommend we proceed, how do we address anti-immigrant fears without being anti-immigration
and a serious answer that resides in the real world would be appreciated if you're serious about this debate
how do we explain to the right wing working class that we understand their fears of immigration but offer no solution, send them on diversity courses?
these people are not our freinds and luckily do not make up the bulk of the working class, i live in haringey right now and not one of my neighbours is anti-immigration, it would be nonsense, its a highly successful, if poor, working class community that has learnt to deal with the influx of different communities and people
cos we realise were all in the same boat and the real enemy is not each other
so how do you recommend we proceed, how do we address anti-immigrant fears without being anti-immigration
and a serious answer that resides in the real world would be appreciated if you're serious about this debate
how do we explain to the right wing working class that we understand their fears of immigration but offer no solution, send them on diversity courses?
these people are not our freinds and luckily do not make up the bulk of the working class, i live in haringey right now and not one of my neighbours is anti-immigration, it would be nonsense, its a highly successful, if poor, working class community that has learnt to deal with the influx of different communities and people
cos we realise were all in the same boat and the real enemy is not each other
Here you go, from The Economist's "Country Briefing: Spain" (April 19th 2002):Taxamo Welf said:
"As is the case in most European countries, the Spanish services sector has grown steadily since the second world war and now dominates the economy, accounting for 66.2% of GDP in 2001. This expansion has come largely at the expense of the agriculture, forestry and fisheries sector, which accounted for just 3.6% of GDP las year, although the industrial sector's share of national income has also declined gradually through the years to stand at 21.1% in 2001, less than one-third of that of the services sector. The construction sector accounted for 9.1% of GDP in 2001, which is high by historical standards, reflecting the construction boom of 1998-2001.
In the services sector, retailing, tourism, banking and telecommunications all make a crucial contribution to economic activity. The tourist industry is especially important and Spain is now one of the most popular tourist destinations in the world. In the agricultural sector, Spain is a particularly important producer of wine, olive oil, fruit and vegetables. It has developed a greenhouse industry in the south-east which, thanks to the benign climate, has become one of the most competitive suppliers of fresh produce to the main European markets. Spain's fishing fleet and associated industry is also highly developed, thanks in part to its maritime location and the high domestic consumption of fish.
Spain's most prominent manufacturing industry is vehicle production, which accounts for about 5% of GDP and exports more than 80% of its output. Spain produced over 3m vehicles for the first time in 2000, consolidating its position as one of the leading vehicle manufacturers in Europe, although output declined marginally in 2001. The construction industry accounts for a higher proportion of GDP than in most other European countries. There are several reasons for this, including strong demand for tourist-related buildings and second homes, high levels of investment in infrastructure (reflecting the large size of the country) and a structural shortage of quality housing."
also:
"...Spain is already home to the biggest bank in continental Europe—Santander; to five of the top seven European construction groups; and to Telefónica, the third-biggest telecoms company in the world..."
"...Two of Europe's top ten business schools are in Spain; Zara, one of the world's fastest-growing retailers, is based in Galicia..."
However, some are predicating problems due to the overinflated construction boom and the impacts it is having on government and the economy here
Taxamo Welf
kebagels pls
cheers - it might have been something along the lines of being the main source of income in certain post-agricultural areas and coastal areas that i was thinking of. I did sound a bit wrong when i thought about it. 
Taxamo Welf
kebagels pls
they are.smokedout said:
Does that mean i think they are a good thing?
Who knows, so far i have not voiced an opinion, unfortunately for you.
smokedout said:
And that post makes me wonder how much experience you have of the working class full stop.
It isn't just people who would join the BNP, or even vote for them, who are uneasy about immigration. Possibly a majority of working class people would like to see a curb on immigration, rightly or wrongly. (That isn't my view.) Most people I know say something along the lines that immigration should be slowed drastically or even halted (it doesn't matter whether or not this is possible-it is the sentiment that has to be dealt with)-so that existing tensions can be eased, recent immigrants absorbed and the rifts between communities that have been here for some decades healed.
Taxamo Welf
kebagels pls
''‘(71%) say that asylum seekers who have arrived in this country from a safe country in Europe should be sent back. There is also support for a toughening of immigration laws with 67% saying laws should be 'much tougher' (MORI, 2003).''LLETSA said:
Thats cited by Andrew Geddes, political scientist - in a acadenic journal which uou can't read fro free
sorry. The poll def exist tho.this one says similar things, bit was commissioned by Migration watch so less trustworthy - tho i don't see how far MW could abuse MORI...
http://www.mori.com/polls/2003/migration.shtml
Re. "asylum seekers who have arrived in this country from a safe country in Europe should be sent back"
I can't see how this is equivalent to being opposed to immigration generally: this is a specific case ...
As someone claiming asylum has to be fleeing oppression, it isn't unreasonable to ask why they should be fleeing France or Germany - not known for their oppression and human rights abuses - and demanding entry to the UK.
People granted asylum are not allowed to work, so while people might be happy about people genuinely fleeing persecution, they might not like the idea of people 'fleeing' France to come to the UK, and then not working when here.
The same person might not have any problem whatsoever with 'immigrants' who come to work or study, who bring valuable skills, who come for family reasons and/or who copme with sufficient funds to support themselves and their dependants.
I am not saying that these are my views - I am trying to point out that the quote about "asylum seekers who have arrived in this country from a safe country" is not equivalent being against immigration or immigrants.
Neither is saying that the rules should be "tougher" - for exactly the same reasons as the above case illustrates.
(BTW personally I am pro-immigration, not least because I am an "immigrant" to the UK myself as I was born outside the UK.)
I can't see how this is equivalent to being opposed to immigration generally: this is a specific case ...
As someone claiming asylum has to be fleeing oppression, it isn't unreasonable to ask why they should be fleeing France or Germany - not known for their oppression and human rights abuses - and demanding entry to the UK.
People granted asylum are not allowed to work, so while people might be happy about people genuinely fleeing persecution, they might not like the idea of people 'fleeing' France to come to the UK, and then not working when here.
The same person might not have any problem whatsoever with 'immigrants' who come to work or study, who bring valuable skills, who come for family reasons and/or who copme with sufficient funds to support themselves and their dependants.
I am not saying that these are my views - I am trying to point out that the quote about "asylum seekers who have arrived in this country from a safe country" is not equivalent being against immigration or immigrants.
Neither is saying that the rules should be "tougher" - for exactly the same reasons as the above case illustrates.
(BTW personally I am pro-immigration, not least because I am an "immigrant" to the UK myself as I was born outside the UK.)
smokedout said:theyd also like to bring back hanging
although funnily enough theres a massive pro-immigration and very working class solidarity movement building in scotland at the moment
perhaps its just that english people are bigotted twats
Unease about immigration is a Europe-wide phenomenon. Scotland seems to be the exception. It won't go away until the reasons for this unease are addressed in a way that does not alienate people.
smokedout said:
What an ignorant load of shite..
People oppose free market migration policies because unlike you they are INTERNATIONALISTS......
They look at the way migration effects poorer countries and poorer people and realise that only really shit people could support such policies.
Das Uberdog
remembers the alamo
Unless yer English, Garrrgh!
JimPage said:
Later-in post number 45 in this thread-I said:
Unease about immigration is a Europe-wide phenomenon. Scotland seems to be the exception. It won't go away until the reasons for this unease are addressed in a way that does not alienate people.
smokedout said:
None of the above. Until those who purport to be on the side of the working class put forward progressive solutions to the alienated section of the white working class, on a systematic basis, then there is little to stop many of them turning to the BNP.
But this argument has been had a million times on these boards.
Das Uberdog
remembers the alamo
It went really well - we got a great reaction from most of the locals and quite a few people joined on the march itself. That includes a bunch of unlikely looking scally lads who joined in, chanted, stayed right 'till the end and left details.
Well worth it.
http://www.prestonrespect.org/bnp.wmv
Well worth it.
http://www.prestonrespect.org/bnp.wmv
Das Uberdog
remembers the alamo
What've you read fuckface? How come you're so fucking eager to put down any attempt to challenge fascists?
It's fucked up numpty's like you that stopped the left uniting in Germany. You're as bad for the fucking movement as the fascists, because you act as their rear-guard. Seriously, what actual reasoning do you have for coming up with your fucking bullshit statements?
btw - 200 people. Not massive, not tiny. Sources from the Hotel inform us that the number of BNPers registered in for the conference was only around 50.
It's fucked up numpty's like you that stopped the left uniting in Germany. You're as bad for the fucking movement as the fascists, because you act as their rear-guard. Seriously, what actual reasoning do you have for coming up with your fucking bullshit statements?
btw - 200 people. Not massive, not tiny. Sources from the Hotel inform us that the number of BNPers registered in for the conference was only around 50.
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