butchersapron
Bring back hanging
You think these people and what they represent offer something to the w/c other than repression? Loon.
Demo against Army 'homecoming' march in luton
- Thread starter durruti02
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You think these people and what they represent offer something to the w/c other than repression? Loon.
If you think they were 'anti-war' protestors then you are either very naïve or very stupid.
The Taliban have as much right to resist occupation and invasion as the Nazis did in Berlin in 1945?
If you join the army (and a lot of these soldiers seem to be young enough that they must have joined in the past 8 years) then you are IMO party to the decisions made by the politicians. I really do not think it's enough to say they are just doing their job. That's a shocking excuse. It didn't work for the Nazi's (fuck godwin's law), it doesn't hold water here.
I don't think these protesters were behaving in a smart way and I'm not comfortable with their sentiments, but if you are a soldier choosing to fight in an invasion force in an illegal war then I'm not sure how much of the moral high ground you can realistically claim.
I'm sick and tired of the hero worship of the military we get these days. That however doesn't excuse mistreating them (or indeed anyone).
Fedayn
Well-Known Member
Racist islamophobe.
Some of your "real heroes", Udo Erasmus?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/bloodbath-at-the-iraqi-reconciliation-summit-1642108.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/bloodbath-at-the-iraqi-reconciliation-summit-1642108.html
score.
Udo Erasmus
Well-Known Member
It's amazing how spineless the anti-war movement is today.
The military parades are part of the state's strategy. In response to the unpopularity of these wars, the State has started organising these propaganda exercises - military parades aim to cement the ideas of patriotism and nationalism & that we should all rally behind the troops. I think it would be a damn good idea for the anti-war movement to say we are not gonna have this glorifcation of militarism and unjust wars on our streets.
The way to confront the tabloids is not to condemn the small number of Muslims (probably whose politics is Islamist, an ideology I don't share) but to start asking critical questions - Is it right that troops who have taken part in the invasion, subjugation and occupation of other people's can have political parades to get public support for these wars.
Obviously, in terms of slogans, placards and presentation one has to think of how to not alienate support for example from military families who oppose the war & soldiers who are anti-war.
But I think that it is good that the nationalist patriotic bullshit was challenged in such a confrontational way.
Udo Erasmus
Well-Known Member
Oh get a life, I make the same distinction as ordinary Iraqis do - between the nationalist resistance directed against the occupiers and those who attack other Iraqis.
TopCat
Putin fanboy
Yeah I'm going to show up with a big "Fight war Not wars" placard.
These protestors didnt do themselves any favours, but dont think they are too worried about the PR aspect of this
Not too sure abou the BNP being involved- if they were they would be singing it from the treetops, but they have specifically denied being there. Also, a few of the people giving the protestors greif were Black from the pictures I saw.
There is a time, a way, and a method, to anti-war - and anti-army protests, and this didnt work. The work of peopel like Rose Gentle and military families against the war would seem to be a better way to do this
Not too sure abou the BNP being involved- if they were they would be singing it from the treetops, but they have specifically denied being there. Also, a few of the people giving the protestors greif were Black from the pictures I saw.
There is a time, a way, and a method, to anti-war - and anti-army protests, and this didnt work. The work of peopel like Rose Gentle and military families against the war would seem to be a better way to do this
So you're in agreement with nationalism in some situations but not others? Nice consistency.
Faced down by anti war protesters! If anti war protesters turned up with their Muslim friends to stop a parade, then expect mass violence. Like it or not, people at the parade will react violently to any attempt by anti war protesters and Muslims trying to stop a perfect legal parade.
What a lovely site that would be, Muslims in a mass brawl with servicemen's families, friends and supporters.
You seen what could happen in yesterday's incident.
If it was not for the police, the Muslims would have got a good kicking.
People's emotions run high in events like this, stay away.
Yeah,a dozen looneys and placards like "Anglian soldiers go to Hell",that really helps.
goldenecitrone
post tenebras lux
It was a peaceful protest, can't see any problem with it.
As others have said these were a gang of crazies and reminded me of another, student/intellectual outfit: the RCP, who also did ‘outrage’, such as the paint bombing of Bomber Harris’s statue and the 'Victory to Iraq’ banner during the Gulf War. They apparently had been leafleting all over Luton , so it looks like they weren’t particularly successful amongst the City’s Muslims.
However, it can’t be be written off: images have gone right across the UK in the MSM and the net of lots of angy white people confronting angry Islamists and many of the posts are saying its lucky they weren’t ‘lynched’. At Marsh Lane School, there is talk of it ‘kicking off’ In my home town, there have been major disturbances between Asian and White youth, which the media has not really covered and sadly many people are saying they are just waiting for a ‘spark’
I don’t have the answers, but I do think a robust challenge from the left to the extremists would help, but going by posters like Fridge magnet who argues that places like Luton should not hold parades because it will offend certain local communities is no answer either, imo,
and as for Udo, lunatic!
However, it can’t be be written off: images have gone right across the UK in the MSM and the net of lots of angy white people confronting angry Islamists and many of the posts are saying its lucky they weren’t ‘lynched’. At Marsh Lane School, there is talk of it ‘kicking off’ In my home town, there have been major disturbances between Asian and White youth, which the media has not really covered and sadly many people are saying they are just waiting for a ‘spark’
I don’t have the answers, but I do think a robust challenge from the left to the extremists would help, but going by posters like Fridge magnet who argues that places like Luton should not hold parades because it will offend certain local communities is no answer either, imo,
and as for Udo, lunatic!
It didn't work for Nazis who had committed war crimes. It worked for the normal rank-and-file of the German Army.
Soldiers are no more "party" to decisions made by politicians than any other member of the electorate. Thankfully in the UK the military has no special say in policy decisions (other than to give advice), unlike many countries where the military constantly get involved in politics or hold other decision making roles.
You say Iraq and Afghanistan are "illegal wars" - other people say they are morally justifiable. The UK electorate has had plenty of opportunity to get rid of the government over this issue and otherwise influence policy, and the overall result is that the UK is still involved in both these places - meaning that members of the UK armed forces get sent there.
It would make more sense to place the blame on members of the public that support and vote for any political party that supports sending troops (which afaik includes the 3 main parties and therefore 90% of the people who voted in 2005).
The difference is that while soldiers sign up to support the democratic wishes of the voters even if they personally disagree, the public who vote to send them don't have to personally face the dangers. This is why people regard them as "heroes" - because they are doing something dangerous on behalf of the large polity (ie the UK public) - in the same way as firefighters or lifeboat volunteers.
Udo Erasmus
Well-Known Member
There's a basic distinction between the nationalism of the oppressor and the oppressed. Irish nationalism in 1916 of a people oppressed was a different kettle of fish to British nationalism of a big imperialist power. It's pretty basic ABC stuff.
What's wrong with paintbombing Bomber Harris' statue? Patriotism is bullshit and should be challenged.
Treelover, why should we allow a military parade on our streets whose aim is propaganda for the armed forces and whose aim is to get people to support unjust wars? Anti-war protestors should target these parades, not seeing rank and file soldiers as enemies, but as people who have been conned and urging them to join the anti-war movemet and fight against the real enemies of working class peopel.
In the last year, the British State has been deeply worried about the crisis in military recruitment, the unpopularity of the Iraq and Afghan War, the sudden spate of homecoming parades are all about drumming up support and countering this trend.
Fedayn
Well-Known Member
In your fucking idiot world Gordon Gentle is a rapist, murderer and butcher. You fucking toytown twat.
Udo Erasmus
Well-Known Member
As I said earlier, I think the aim should be to win rank and file soldiers over to the anti-war cause.
Gordon Gentle was a victim of the British state, he came from a poor background, had been unemployed for 3 years and was conned into enlisting and fighting in a rich man's war.
I don't think we should attack individual British soldiers (we want to win them to our cause as fellow working class people) but to treat them as heroes, or in anyway support military parades, is deeply flawed. The aim of the military parade is obviously ideological, to say that these people are heroes - on an individual level, many are probably braver than I, but this is not what it is about, it is encouraging people to treat them as heroes to make out that the wars they participated in were heroic and to shore up support from the public for the British state, the UK military, British imperialism and foreign wars,.
So are the Taliban oppressors or oppressed?
You are talking bullshit and should be challenged - so what should I throw paint bombs at? (and how will it help)
Fedayn
Well-Known Member
You said that the loons demonstrating 'spoke truth', stop bactracking.
I think you also need to stop with your binary opposition politics aswell.
You reckon those 'speaking truth', as you called them, are an obstacle or a help in winning over working-class troops? Do you usually think calling people rapists and butchers is a way of winning friends and influencing them?
The public supported (or at least didn't prevent) Iraq and Afghanistan way before these parades started.
You say it is "propaganda" (the dissemination of information aimed at influencing the opinions or behaviors of large numbers of people). So what information is being disseminated and what behaviour is being aimed at?
In reality the parades are for the benefit of local communities - to be able to express support and sympathy for their local regiments, who have often seen long tours of duty and had a fair number killed and injured. They are expressing support for thiose individuals - not for the government or a specific foreign policy.
I suggest you try and win the political argument and change UK foreign policy rather than try and piss off and vilify the local communities and public servants (aka soldiers) who end up implementing the policies mandated by the rest of the country.
To start with you need to be a lot more truthful about your supposedly wonderful "resistance". There are pleny of arguments against sending UK troops overseas that don' involve trying to pretend the sun shines out of the Taliban's arse, or wherever else you seem to have lodged your head.
likesfish
You can't park here sir
maybe they should thank the police without whose presence they would have got a well desrved kicking 
bit like the nutters who protest at brighton pride dozen loons surrounded by loads of police to keep them safe from understandably pissed off gay men who get drunker as the day goes on not nice.
These mupppets should not have got any publicity imho muslims are not impressed by them and everybody else thinks they represent muslims as if phelps represents christians
bit like the nutters who protest at brighton pride dozen loons surrounded by loads of police to keep them safe from understandably pissed off gay men who get drunker as the day goes on not nice.
These mupppets should not have got any publicity imho muslims are not impressed by them and everybody else thinks they represent muslims as if phelps represents christians
Udo Erasmus
Well-Known Member
British soldiers should understand that objectively they are not the good guys, but part of a occupying invasion force. They have taken part in a shameful adventure, it wasn't their fault, our fire should be targetted at the British state, but we should resist any demand to 'rally behind the troops'
I admire the protestors because they took a stand to say that it is shameful for a war that has left a million iraqis dead to be glorified with a military parade. I welcome these uncomfortable realities suddenly being brought into the Military PR exercise.
I don't think their slogans, tactics and approach were the best, but in the absence of the secular left having a high profile tackling patriotism and the role of the military head-on then other forces will intervene.
I believe that the anti-war movement should be organising counter-demo's to military parades and disrupting them - but with a more nuanced and politically sharper set of slogans and placards.
Partly rubbish! There's two aims to the parades
1. Keeping the Army in the Public Eye (KAPE). A long standing policy in the military that helps keep recruitment up, it's a relatively cheap PR exercise.
2. Helping the guys unwind after a tour before they bugger off on post-op leave. The sense of pride in being in a parade that goes well is very satisfying. It helps the morale of the guys.
It's got sod all to do with the popularity of the wars. The military generally doesn't give a flying fuck about how popular a war is, they just get the job done. You're trying to read more into it than there is. Individual soldiers may have mis-givings about the wars (just look at ARRSE if you don't believe me) and the way they are conducted, but they still get on with their duties.
Good God. And the parade supporters will just stand there and let you do that? As yesterday shown. I just hope you speak for yourself.
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