DownwardDog
Well-Known Member
TomUS said:Got to admit, no matter what you think of this Israel-Gaza conflict, that the buzzing of Assad's vacation palace was pretty cool.
And on his birthday too! Eid milaad saeed!
Demands made for the release of Israeli soldier hostage
- Thread starter Tom A
- Start date
And on his birthday too! Eid milaad saeed!
Barking_Mad
Non sibi sed omnibus
So let's get this straight. Israel has kidnapped members of a democratically elected government.
I wonder how the mainstream media would have run the story had it been an Israeli cabinet member kidnapped?
I wonder how the mainstream media would have run the story had it been an Israeli cabinet member kidnapped?
Fullyplumped
in a personal capacity
They're playing the Hamas game, treating them as hostages.belboid said:
Crazy_diamond
New Member
I understand the Israelis call this “collective punishment”, they do the same in Lebanon.Spandex said:Fucking brilliant
Someone is kidnapped, so to get him back the Israelis bomb a power station and a few random bridges, fly jets doing sonic booms over residential areas all night and flood the area the kidnappers might be in with tanks and troops.
I’d like to know why there is never an outcry from Western Governments when this sort of thing happens it is against international law I believe
Fullyplumped
in a personal capacity
They're all terrorists,and they're all pathetic.TAE said:
Barking_Mad said:
"...is it a war crime for the air force of one country to bomb an enemy's television station because of the propaganda in the broadcasts? Under the Geneva Conventions, this is not a war crime. Just about all aspects of a state's infrastructure - roads, bridges, power stations, factories - become legitimate targets if they might be put to military use. Such attacks only become war crimes if the extent of collateral damage to civilians and civilian interests resulting from the attack would be excessive compared to the military advantage gained from the attack."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1420133.stm
The attack is a collective punishment and collective punishment is illegal. Nazis who carried out collective punishments were hung.
To date the collective punishment is simply terrorisation and the destruction of infrastructure. When the murders start there will be no difference between killing Palestinians from a distance, with planes, tanks and artillery, and kneeling them beside a trench.
http://home.earthlink.net/~platter/collective-pun.html
Collective punishment.
To date the collective punishment is simply terrorisation and the destruction of infrastructure. When the murders start there will be no difference between killing Palestinians from a distance, with planes, tanks and artillery, and kneeling them beside a trench.
http://home.earthlink.net/~platter/collective-pun.html
Collective punishment.
Spandex
A crazy bulbous punchbag of sound
TeeJay & Angry Bob: Whatever the precise legal definition of Israel's response to this kidnapping, do you not think it's a massive over-reaction that primarily (and seriously) affects ordinary Palestinians who have nothing what-so-ever to do with it and will be totally counter-productive.
In my view it's just wrong.
In my view it's just wrong.
Fullyplumped
in a personal capacity
All the attacks, by the Israeli state and its agents, and the Palestinian state and its agents, are collective attacks and collective punishments om each other. Both have resulted in thousands of dead on each side - 1000 or 4000 is not a significant difference in the order of the crime. The Palestinians and the Israelis are equallty culpable. You, moono, have allowed yourself to become a partisan propagandist for one over the other. No doubt you may have some personal or tribal reason for this but I don't think it helps much.moono said:
Spandex
A crazy bulbous punchbag of sound
Although I agree this is true to an extent, what really gets to me is the difference in treatment Israelis and Palestinians recieve from Western Governments and media. If the Palestinains somehow managed to pull off an event with similar effects on Israelis - like Barking Mad's example of 'arresting' elected politicians - there would be absolute outrage.TeeJay said:
As it is there seems (to me) to be an acceptance that the Israeli actions are somehow legitimate.
Imagine the outcry if the UK had tried this tactic when Ken Bigley was kidnapped in Iraq.
Tom A said:
Not that you'd know the truth from Media reporting - which is always slanted in favour of Israel.
Here are the figures on reporting in US.
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/media/chron/report.html
There was a recent similar report about the BBC - I'm trying to remember where I saw it.
Crazy_diamond
New Member
All I know is a friend of mine who visits and has family ties to Lebanon says thats what it is calledangry bob said:
Fullyplumped;
I'm a partisan counter-propagandist actually, but I'm not denying that my whole weight is behind justice and the rule of law. That was the 'partisanship' to which you were referring ?
Every comment regarding Israel/Palestine ought to be directed by the law which makes it a useful and substantive comment. Having some knobhead state that Palestine belongs to Israel because there were some jews there a whiles back is what 'doesn't help'. Informing people as to the actual legalities/illegalities of the situation is what helps. It makes people conscious of the law and that's what I try to do.
If you find that supportive of the Palestinians then that's because that's what the law IS.
For example, arresting the Palestinian government is, at the very least, collective punishment and collective punishment is illegal. Being a member of the Palestinian parliament is not a crime in itself, although Zionists, Israeli and American, would very much desire that it was.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5129836.stm
Fullyplumped, your implication that supporting one side over the other is somehow wrong is a little worrying. It smacks of Dumptyism, not thinking by the rule of law.
I'm a partisan counter-propagandist actually, but I'm not denying that my whole weight is behind justice and the rule of law. That was the 'partisanship' to which you were referring ?
Every comment regarding Israel/Palestine ought to be directed by the law which makes it a useful and substantive comment. Having some knobhead state that Palestine belongs to Israel because there were some jews there a whiles back is what 'doesn't help'. Informing people as to the actual legalities/illegalities of the situation is what helps. It makes people conscious of the law and that's what I try to do.
If you find that supportive of the Palestinians then that's because that's what the law IS.
For example, arresting the Palestinian government is, at the very least, collective punishment and collective punishment is illegal. Being a member of the Palestinian parliament is not a crime in itself, although Zionists, Israeli and American, would very much desire that it was.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5129836.stm
Fullyplumped, your implication that supporting one side over the other is somehow wrong is a little worrying. It smacks of Dumptyism, not thinking by the rule of law.
CyberRose
أرفع الشفرات
moono...
The thing with solely basing your arguments on law is sometimes the laws aren't right/just. Plus they can be interpreted either way. In this example, I heard an Israeli official justify arresting Hamas politicians by pointing out that Hamas is an internationally recognised terrorist group (which technically it is) and that arresting members of a terrorist group is well within the law...
And on a more general Israel/Palestine note, both sides have interpreted international law to justify their various activities, just as you are doing, so why do you assume your interpretation is correct and the other wrong?
The thing with solely basing your arguments on law is sometimes the laws aren't right/just. Plus they can be interpreted either way. In this example, I heard an Israeli official justify arresting Hamas politicians by pointing out that Hamas is an internationally recognised terrorist group (which technically it is) and that arresting members of a terrorist group is well within the law...
And on a more general Israel/Palestine note, both sides have interpreted international law to justify their various activities, just as you are doing, so why do you assume your interpretation is correct and the other wrong?
It's not what I was looking for [see previous post] but here is an interview where John Pilger talks about the pro-israeli bias in the press - even the BBC. The first few minutes of the interview are about Palestine.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article13678.htm
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article13678.htm
moono said:
I wonder if bombing a bus full of civillians is collective punishment for Israel's actions in Palestine.
Bob_the_lost
Elsewhere
The soldier was dead as soon as they had him.
To release him now would be backing down in the face of force. Without some way of saving face for the palestinians that's about as likely as my election to chief of the lizard kings. The Israelis are going to pile on the pressure and people are going to die.
Personally i'd send out a second demand requiring the release of the minsters and a two hour deadline. Then when it passes he'd be killed.
After there it starts to get messy.
The only real chance for calm is a raid on the location he's being held in.
To release him now would be backing down in the face of force. Without some way of saving face for the palestinians that's about as likely as my election to chief of the lizard kings. The Israelis are going to pile on the pressure and people are going to die.
Personally i'd send out a second demand requiring the release of the minsters and a two hour deadline. Then when it passes he'd be killed.
After there it starts to get messy.
The only real chance for calm is a raid on the location he's being held in.
Bob_the_lost
Elsewhere
Why?CyberRose said:
Now they've made the demand to let him go would be an act of weakness, without some sort of outside arbirtation or reciprocal act by the Israelis it's not likely. People talk about international opinion a lot, but it rarely makes any noticable difference to a nation's actions.
Then there's revenge, i doubt that the israelis are going to rebuild the power station and i'm very sceptical of the zero casualty report. It's possible that Hamas will back down, but i really don't think it's likely in the near term. Some sort of long term stalemate could work, but the Israelis aren't playing that game.
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