Delegation To Belfast 2009/West Belfast Festival

[Nigel]

What's progressive about denouncing contraception as a British plot to weaken the Irish nation in your party newspaper?

what are you going on about?
Have you got references for this?

 

[Idris2002]

I agree with troop withdrawal not out of any nationalistic agenda, but because of the legacy of brutality perpetrated by the security forces in the 26 counties, primarily against the Catholic community. For this reason alone I would support the demonstration, after all I'd pretty much guarantee that 'our lads' are continuing to conduct themselves in a less than honourable manner when carrying out their policing function in the province. However, the people of West Belfast I would still consider to be a beleaguered community who are on the front line of the struggle against the oppressive tactics of a highly militarised policing operation, the only problem being that when resistance to injustice is mobilised around nationalistic sentiments, it's reasoning, rationale and tactics become tainted by an ideology of xenophobia and social division.

I would also say that anyone who proposes a united Ireland as a means of solving the problem of sectarian hatred fails to understand the complexity of the issues surrounding ethnic conflict, most notably the way it manifests itself in its most virulent form in the most deprived neighbourhoods of the province. This is similar, if not identical, to the patterning of racist violence in this country, and people might want to think a little more about how the nature of religious sectarianism such as that found in the north of Ireland mirrors that of racism.

<sigh> you mean 6 counties, right?</sigh>

You're right about the complexities of sectarianism in Northern Ireland; that's precisely why I think the whole island needs a 'reboot' of the kind that only unification by consent could provide.

 

[Idris2002]

what are you going on about?
Have you got references for this?

Here's my reference: page 131 of English's Armed Struggle.

http://books.google.ie/books?id=WxJ...X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#PPA131,M1

I was in Belfast when this book came out, btw, and the consensus all round was that it was broadly fair-minded even though English is from a Protestant background.

 

[N_igma]

I was in Belfast when this book came out, btw, and the consensus all round was that it was broadly fair-minded even though English is from a Protestant background.

He gave me a few lectures, intelligent man, great book.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

my advice based on my recent travels to the Republic is to stay in the wicked North. Much much cheaper and if you have an accident you wont be charged to visit the A & E

On the other hand you're substantially less likely to end up in the A&E because some Loyalists give you a kicking on account of where you live.

They don't charge for it, mind.

 

[Nigel]

Here's my reference: page 131 of English's Armed Struggle.

http://books.google.ie/books?id=WxJ...X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#PPA131,M1

I was in Belfast when this book came out, btw, and the consensus all round was that it was broadly fair-minded even though English is from a Protestant background.

Do I have to plough through all this crap, or are you going to reference the piece that you are on about>?

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Do I have to plough through all this crap, or are you going to reference the piece that you are on about>?

Eh?

 

[Idris2002]

Do I have to plough through all this crap, or are you going to reference the piece that you are on about>?

I just gave you the fucking reference, you moron. PAGE 131.

 

[butchersapron]

You're not in the lecture theatre now Idris

 

[Idris2002]

You're not in the lecture theatre now Idris

I once asked a class to give me an example of 'Irish culture'. This poor American lad put his hand up and said 'Braveheart'.

'THAT'S SCOTTISH', I shouted at him.

He didn't come back the next week.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

and rightly so, may I add

Idris teaches punctuation

 

[Idris2002]

Idris teaches punctuation

Good times, good times.

 

[Nigel]

I just gave you the fucking reference, you moron. PAGE 131.

No need to get all wound up, just asked for page reference.

Arguably Republican movement is a broad church.
However leadership were on the whole progressive.
Are you saying that this was official policy passed at Sinn Fein Ard Fheis?

Maybe a dig a Dublin Sinn Fein what I've been heard wer considered very left wing(even Trotskyist)

 

[Idris2002]

>>>However leadership were on the whole progressive.

 

[partyzan]

<sigh> you mean 6 counties, right?</sigh>

You're right about the complexities of sectarianism in Northern Ireland; that's precisely why I think the whole island needs a 'reboot' of the kind that only unification by consent could provide.

Of course I meant the 6 counties, but if drawing attention to my typo make you feel better about yourself, then who I am I to deny you that [small sigh]..

But anyway you seem to be of the opinion that firstly, unification by consent is possible and secondly that it is the only way to eradicate sectarianism [BIG sigh]...which would seem to show that you don't understand the complexities of sectarianism, let alone how deeply entrenched it is in the social fabric of the "26"[sic] counties!

 

[Nigel]

Good times, good times.

Just another generic fascist.

 

[partyzan]

I once asked a class to give me an example of 'Irish culture'. This poor American lad put his hand up and said 'Braveheart'.

'THAT'S SCOTTISH', I shouted at him.

He didn't come back the next week.

Don't you think it's rather unprofessional and extremely poor teaching practice for a lecturer/teacher to "shout" at their students. Surely that would amount to bullying and humiliation; and you seem quite pleased that he dropped out as a consequence.

 

[Nigel]

I should apologise to Idris for not reading his post properly, however he seems such an obnoxious bastard i'll leave it

 

[partyzan]

I should apologise to Idris for not reading his post properly, however he seems such an obnoxious bastard i'll leave it

LMFAO

 

[Nigel]

LMFAO

Glad I made someone happy today!!!!

 

[Idris2002]

I should apologise to Idris for not reading his post properly, however he seems such an obnoxious bastard i'll leave it

Good times, good times.

Don't you think it's rather unprofessional and extremely poor teaching practice for a lecturer/teacher to "shout" at their students. Surely that would amount to bullying and humiliation; and you seem quite pleased that he dropped out as a consequence.

Good times, good times.

 

[Nigel]

Good times, good times.



Good times, good times.

You have a good rapport with your students then.

 

[Idris2002]

You have a good rapport with your students then.

 

[Nigel]

Didn't he used to Hypnotise the kids in an attempt to take over the world!!!

 

[Idris2002]

Didn't he used to Hypnotise the kids in an attempt to take over the world!!!

An inspiration to us all.

 

[cantsin]

LOL. And you accuse me of drival when you write things such as 'colonial oppression'.

It also explains one of the reasons I am here because I am quite fond of you old fashioned leftys. I always think your hearts are in the right place and you tend to be quite gentle people but you live in an age that is over. Nobody with any sort of real idea of how the modern world is talks about 'colonial oppression' any more. Things have moved on so much, especially in Ireland and its as though you are desperately trying to hang on to the 70's and 80's.

Look go on your little demo and have a smashing time. This board is for you lefties and I am merely an interested observer but you are all rather sweet in your own angry protesting little ways.

nice try fucknugget , but it wont wash - yes, its obvious you enjoy this shit, we gathered that, aint a lot going on in old Stoaty boy's life , and you find this kid of adverserial interaction stimulating on some level or another , but dont bother getting involved in discussions about things like Englland colonial legacy in Ireland ' when you clearly know / care fuck all about it , its just silly -

as second / third gen. Irish Catholic, I'm not even going to waste another second trying to convince ...you.... about how much things have / haven't moved on in Ireland , . Just silly , and it's not a subject that warrants discussion with political-troll / voyeurs, however pitiable their personal plight might be.

Go and look at the pictures of Kevin Mdaids wife and tell me about the legacy of English oppression

 

[N_igma]

Airey Neave was a cunt!

UP DA INLA!

 

[durruti02]

I used to be a partitionist, but I'm alright now.

Anti-partitionism is indeed on the back foot in the 26 counties, and even in the old days it was more of a shibboleth than a real goal. But I became an anti-partitionist when I realised that partition doesn't work. There isn't a single case, be it India, Palestine, Cyprus or Ireland where partition has not resulted in continuing conflict.

The GFA seemed to offer a way to reconcile the politics of Northern Ireland in such a way as to substantially reduce the conflict in that region. But the recent killing in Coleraines indicates that beyond the directly political aspects of the society, that society remains a deeply sectarian society, where the chauvinism that resulted from partition is firmly entrenched. The ultimate solution to the conflict (and to the political defects of the 26 counties, which made that area's model of development distorted and unsustainable) is the unification of the island by consent (and only by consent).

of course 'partition' does not work .. for ordinary people .. but neither does nationalism nore creating 'super countries' ..

to cunter pose partition with nationalism is where it ( and you??) go wrong .. nationalism just creates other problems

the problems in Ulster exists way before Partition .. .. and there is no Partition in Scotland yet sectarianism still thrives ..

it is socialism or another type of society that stops sectarianism .. fighting for nationlaism just pushes the 'loyalists' furhter into their ghetto

you would be better off arguing for a federation of the British Isles .. with its parliament in Liverpool

 

[partyzan]

...it is socialism or another type of society that stops sectarianism

You seem to be implying that the fundamental cause of sectarianism is socio-economic inequality, however, social division exists in all societies, and even emerges in recently formed communities and social groups, along many different lines. Like I said in my previous post, the most violent and virulent forms of sectarianism are to be found in deprived neighbourhoods, which suggests that a more just economic system might reduce these tensions. But tbh I'd very much like to hear of any socialist society that hasn't experienced some degree of ethnic/religious tension, between different groups.

.. fighting for nationlaism just pushes the 'loyalists' furhter into their ghetto

I totally agree, but does this mean that the West Belfast festival shouldn't go ahead? After all this community does have the right to protest against its experiences of injustice and oppression.

you would be better off arguing for a federation of the British Isles .. with its parliament in Liverpool

But wouldn't this be like a "super country", as you put it?

 

[partyzan]

.....Englland colonial legacy in Ireland...

Yes there is a legacy of colonial oppression in Ireland, but what seems quite obvious now is that the British State don't want anything to do with it, and haven't done for a number of years, and would probably quite happily do a runner from the place. The problem being that they risk an all out sectarian conflict in their back yard, which would cause them no end of problems and embarassment on both a European and International level. N/I is quite simply a thorn in the side of the British establishment.

Go and look at the pictures of Kevin Mdaids wife and tell me about the legacy of English oppression

To reduce the causes and reasons of this hideous crime down to "English oppression" is to totally misunderstand the complex causes of sectarianism, and more specifically, sectarian violence. Violent acts like this are taking place all over the world on a daily basis, and are fuelled by the same ethnic/religious rivalries that exist in the 6 counties. Don't get me wrong if there'd been no 'plantation' in the first place then we wouldn't be having this conversation, but it happened, and no amount of referencing to the injustices of the past, is going to move the situation in the province forward. That's not to say the past should be forgotten, too much has happened for it not to be, and yes, to heal the problems of the present it is necessary for us to understand what contributed to them in the first place. But to view present problems solely through the lense of the past, and the romantic ideal of a united Ireland, just serves to perpetuate sectarian conflict.