Defend the SSP! Oppose a split!

[Bear]

Please, I wasn't slavering over Carolyn Leckie - she appears to be an obnoxious, arrogant arsehole. Didn't she get herself chucked out of the Scottish Parliament much to the irritation of the other SSP MSP's.

Regarding her choice of clothes, it would appear to me that she dresses in a sexually provocative way in order to attract sexual attention to herself (presumably from men). No doubt you will tell me that women wear short skirts or high heels or fish-nets because they feel good, or because women like wearing them. However, it may not be the most appropriate attire for an anti-trident protest!

To me all feminists are the same whatever name they choose to use. Feminists should create a feminist party like in Sweden and please stay well-a-fucking-way from the socialist movement and the working class.

Regarding pornography and masturbation, I think that both are perfectly acceptable. If you don't like it don't do it, but please don't tell me I can't. See how many people vote SSP if you put your plan to abolish adult porn at the front of your manifesto! You're a fucking joke!

I used to be a member of the SSP. It was great at first, we establish a rural branch where I used to live and managed to get over 18% of the vote in local elections. At the count there was a little town of about 1000 people where about 1 in 4 people voted for us in the general election... It was local and small but we had a good branch and everyone was happy. Incidentally the gender balance was about 2 to 1 but our candidate for the general election was a female. Then these feminist freaks took over and it all went to shit.

The SSP is now fucked, come May 2007 it all over! They couldn't form their own fucken party so they hijacked us. The 50/50 on the regional list was about getting them to the top of the list (they couldn't have done it any other way) and once they got there and got elected they started causing more shit.

You should be glad you never joined because believe me having worked ones ass of and donated over £1000 to something over a number of years only to watch a small group of feminist freaks with a chip on their shoulder the size of mounteverist wreak it doesn't feel very nice. Tommy did wrong but they totally stabbed him in the back by keeping notes of personal meetings about a members private life and then giving those notes to the press. They're utter bastards.

Be glad you didn't join. Seeing what you worked so long and hard for go up in smoke isn't nice, and, like I said before, the far left will always be one long slow car crash...

PS. About the clothes debate. Women who wear sexual provocative clothes generally do so because they want to be noticed by men.

 

[Bear]

The SSP might recruit and retain more members if they ran dancing lessons. They'd certainly get more girls to join.

Yeah, learning how to dance is cool... My friend talked me into giving it a try and it turned out to be loadsa fun.

 

[JimPage]

He never saw Red Action back in 01, obviously.

or AFA in 1997.....

 

[JimPage]

the current debates are nothing to do with feminism- its about personality and
honesty. either TS is lying about admitting to shenaigans at the SSP National Council meeting- or solid socialists like Keith Baldesarra, Colin Fox or Alan McCombe are

For what its worth the female MSPs like Rosie Kane are known more for things like their militant defence of Asylum Seekers and support for local community projects than her dress sense

 

[Sue]

I'm surprised the SSP has lasted this long to be honest given the ...diverse... views expressed by members/ex-members.

 

[q_w_e_r_t_y]

<sigh>

There were less women because women are less interested in joining political parties.

...and WHY is this???
- overly concentrated on electoral strategy?
- not relevant enough to everyday lives
- participation limited if you have caring responsibilites?
- dominated by men?
- non-participatory format
- feminism not being taken seriously?

I'll give you an example, I go to dancing leasons and in my class there are more women than men; it's not that men are discriminated against or there are barriers, there is no discrimination and no barriers to men joining my dancing class, it's just that men are less interested in general.

What - do you think this is some kind of genetic thing? Having an y-chromosome makes you not want to dance? - dont be bloody stupid.

Of course there's barriers to men joining a dancing class - ask why they are less interested,
- for a start it tends ot be a women dominated environment,
- dancing is seen to be "effeminate" or "gay"
- "real" (especially Scottish) men dont dance - they shuffle about awkwardly until they can run to the bar.

It was the same with the SSP branch I was in, nobody was sexist, we put up no barriers to women joining, it was just that women in general were less interested. It honestly was as simple as that. We didn't need any gender balance forced and we shouldn't have lost deligates as a result.

But WHY were the women less interested - is it this chromosome thing again - something genetic that shuts off the political bit of your brain if you have two Xs - or is it because we are constantly told that "women are not interested in politics" just like "men arent interested in dancing".

If I go down to my community centre and look at all the local groups down there - tenants and residents, the playgroup, community safety group, the community council etc etc etc - they are all pretty much 80% female. All of these groups are political groups - it is UTTER rubbish to suggest that women are less interested in politics. But what they are far less interested in is standing for election, for attending boring pointless meetings full of pontificating windbags.

Jim Page is right tho, this split isnt really over feminism - but feminism has been attacked in the course of this and its woken up a good few sleepng dragons.

 

[JHE]

Real men dance in skirts

- dancing is seen to be "effeminate" or "gay"
- "real" (especially Scottish) men dont dance - they shuffle about awkwardly until they can run to the bar.

 

[Fullyplumped]

<sigh>Of course there's barriers to men joining a dancing class - ask why they are less interested,
- for a start it tends ot be a women dominated environment,
- dancing is seen to be "effeminate" or "gay"
- "real" (especially Scottish) men dont dance - they shuffle about awkwardly until they can run to the bar.

but maybe if the SSP were to offer dancing classes they would join in? A bit of the Pride of Erin or the Valeta or even the March of the Mods, or what about the Canadian Barn Dance or the Military Two-Step?

 

[John Grean]

<sigh>

...and WHY is this???
- overly concentrated on electoral strategy?
- not relevant enough to everyday lives
- participation limited if you have caring responsibilites?
- dominated by men?
- non-participatory format
- feminism not being taken seriously?

Jim Page is right tho, this split isnt really over feminism - but feminism has been attacked in the course of this and its woken up a good few sleepng dragons.

Well if the sleeping dragons are more feminists/radical feminists I don't think it will help you next year.

Most men are becoming bored by 30 years or more of being told they are rapists, murderers, paedophiles, and inherently evil by the feminist lobby.

This rad fem propaganda, as exemplified by the SSP, is particularly aimed at working class men who not only have had to contend with the destruction of traditional male industries, but also vilification by radical feminists on the left and their cringingly politically correct supporters in the liberal (and even conservative) middle class.

As per usual, many of the things you list as supposedly counting against women being involved in politics also apply to many men -
- SSP politics irrelevant to working class men.
- participation limited if you have a job/family.
- dominated by the middle class.
- non-participatory format.
- men's issues regarding work/home life not taken seriously.

All we can do is wait and see how the SSP get on in 2007, which I suspect will not be very good.

As you may have established, I don't think this will be a great loss to the working class or to the cause of socialism/revolution.

 

[Bear]

<sigh>



...and WHY is this???
- overly concentrated on electoral strategy?
- not relevant enough to everyday lives
- participation limited if you have caring responsibilites?
- dominated by men?
- non-participatory format
- feminism not being taken seriously?



What - do you think this is some kind of genetic thing? Having an y-chromosome makes you not want to dance? - dont be bloody stupid.

Of course there's barriers to men joining a dancing class - ask why they are less interested,
- for a start it tends ot be a women dominated environment,
- dancing is seen to be "effeminate" or "gay"
- "real" (especially Scottish) men dont dance - they shuffle about awkwardly until they can run to the bar.



But WHY were the women less interested - is it this chromosome thing again - something genetic that shuts off the political bit of your brain if you have two Xs - or is it because we are constantly told that "women are not interested in politics" just like "men arent interested in dancing".

If I go down to my community centre and look at all the local groups down there - tenants and residents, the playgroup, community safety group, the community council etc etc etc - they are all pretty much 80% female. All of these groups are political groups - it is UTTER rubbish to suggest that women are less interested in politics. But what they are far less interested in is standing for election, for attending boring pointless meetings full of pontificating windbags.

Jim Page is right tho, this split isnt really over feminism - but feminism has been attacked in the course of this and its woken up a good few sleepng dragons.

Why? I don't know, maybe it's because politics can be (or is at least seen by many to be) brutal and competative and men are naturally more competative and agressive than women... I don't know, but I'm pretty sure it is a chromosome thing; just like less men are interested in dancing. I'll tell you what it's not though, it's not that " - feminism [is] not being taken seriously?". Feminism not being taken seriously is not the reason why there aren't as many women involved in politics as there are men. Because most women don't take feminism seriously either. The radical feminists in the SSP are just a joke; they should form their own party and stay the fuck away from other parties because they'll only wreak them. I look forward to seeing every single one of those feminist freaks lose their seats, and they'll never get back in again, ever.

 

[Bear]

All we can do is wait and see how the SSP get on in 2007, which I suspect will not be very good.

As you may have established, I don't think this will be a great loss to the working class or to the cause of socialism/revolution.

Tommy Sheridan might be re-elected, but that's about it

 

[JimPage]

Tommy Sheridan might be re-elected, but that's about it

i think SSP will lose seats- but still come out with 3 or 4 MSPs. There could be gains at the cocucil elections which are under PR this time round.

all of this depends on if whatever the result of this, people can unite again. as there are no significant differences politically between the sides here.

if not, then we will have Respect Scotland and BNP Councillors in Glasgow- an appaling prospect

both sides are supportive of feminism - its simply a non issue

 

[Bear]

i think SSP will lose seats- but still come out with 3 or 4 MSPs. There could be gains at the cocucil elections which are under PR this time round.

all of this depends on if whatever the result of this, people can unite again. as there are no significant differences politically between the sides here.

if not, then we will have Respect Scotland and BNP Councillors in Glasgow- an appaling prospect

both sides are supportive of feminism - its simply a non issue

Dream on. No SSP MSP bar Tommy Sheridan has a chance of getting back in. And wheither Tommy is still a member of the SSP after the court case is finished is another matter.

 

[Sue]

...as there are no significant differences politically between the sides here.

Going by this thread there certainly seem to be some quite fundamental differences between SSP members...

Have to say that I'm finding the latter part of this thread decidedly What the fuck is going on?

 

[q_w_e_r_t_y]

vilification by radical feminists on the left

I can only think of one radfem that I know about in the SSP, the rest of us as socialist feminists.

As per usual, many of the things you list as supposedly counting against women being involved in politics also apply to many men -

Indeed they do - and its a good reason to change them. Much of feminism is about the structures of power - particularly as it affects women but the analysis is applicable everywhere that you get a dominent/subordinate group.

Patriarchy is damaging not only to women but also to men in different ways. While Fathers for Justice are unquestionably a reactionary grouping, there are unquestionably issues around the courts presumption that mothers are best placed to provide care for their children and that a father's role is to provide material resources for them.

Until men realise however that the destruction of patriarchy is ultimately in thier own interests as well in order to play an equal part in all aspects of life tho, the movement is weakened by a socially dominent group imposing its norms.

Thankfully however there are a number of men in the SSP who appreciate the role of patriarchy in supporting capitalism as an excuse to benefit from the unpaid labour of women in the home and additional exploitation of women both in labour but increasingly also through their sexuality and reproductive functionings.

 

[tollbar]

Dream on. No SSP MSP bar Tommy Sheridan has a chance of getting back in. And wheither Tommy is still a member of the SSP after the court case is finished is another matter.

I think that you should bear in mind that both the NOtW lawyer, yesterday and the judge today, have dropped some heavy hints about possible perjury investigations following the end of this case.

It may well be that some will be in no position to stand for any position next may and thats not counting possible bankrupcies as a result of it.

 

[tollbar]

Verdict due today folks !.

Also

Sheridan- The Stage Show.

http://tinyurl.com/zoom5