you are wrong and thats what you can't handle .. i've been there the last two mondays .. and will continue to do so until this shit finishes .. and if things get worse i will go dowm more
so why do you not go .. it seems your kind of bag?
Day of rage: National march on the israeli embassy
- Thread starter Udo Erasmus
- Start date
so why do you not go .. it seems your kind of bag?
grogwilton
Well-Known Member
You got to love the scandinavian countries. Except Denmark which seems remarkably progressive on some stuff while seirdly reactionary on other stuff.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
You're a bullshitter, durutti and given the content of your threads and posts, it is unlikely that you would want to rub shoulders with 'leftists'. Btw, I've been there and I didn't see you.
What I can't "handle" is your badly thought through posts; your barking of orders and your constant ultimatums. You're an arrogant contrarian who cannot grasp the fact that his thinking is muddled and his logic is flawed.
Udo Erasmus
Well-Known Member
The trouble with Durruti's analysis of Hamas is that he refuses to actually consider that these movements are not monolithic but operate in precise historical and material contexts under all kinds of pressures. For example, Hamas at the moment present some challenge to the Arab regimes, while the Muslim Brotherhood leadership in Egypt to some extend puts the breaks on a challenge to the Mubarak regime.
Consider if we took the same approach elsewhere:
For example, somebody selling the Morning Star on a demo isn't necessarily gonna icepick a trotskyist, support gulags in Britain and want to turn Britain into a totalitarian one-party state despite their connections with an organisation that has strong origins in Stalinism. And despite historically the British Communist Party having links with Stalnist regimes, and despite criticisms of the political orientation of British communism, one can still recognise that their were many fine militants who fought for working class emancipation and people who joined the Communist Party to fight for socialism.
As I stated earlier, would I judge Plaid Cymru today (many of whose activists are committed anti-fascists) on the basis that some of its founders in the 1930s were fellow travellers of the European radical right? Plaid as a modern political party has also shifted ideology in order to appeal to a wider base in Wales beyond it's welsh speaking core vote, for example, in South Wales they have adopted old-Labour rhetoric. They initially argued for the abolition of the English language in Wales, but they recognised that this was not going to connect with the majority of people in Wales who don't speak Welsh etc.
For example, despite it's Islamist background Hamas in 2005 supported the candidature of a Christian Woman as Mayor of Ramallah (just as they backed a Christian to become mayor of Bethlehem) who was an activist in the secular leftist PFLP, it also invited PFLP into government when it won the elections (an offer PFLP rejected). If Hamas was as monolithic as Durruti claims (the Palestinian stooges of Sudan etc.) it would be inconceivable that it would invite a party like the PFLP that with strong roots among Palestinian Christians and a secular leftist orientation into power.
Yes, Durruti, Hamas supported the candidature of a secular marxist woman from a christian background to become Mayor of Palestine's political capital Ramallah.
As a modern political party seeking to be electable, despite its islamist ideology, Hamas recognises that most Palestinians don't support the Islamisation of Palestine and adjust their policies (just as I noted how nationalism in Wales had changed in response to the political context it operates within).
Hamas' religious leaders are also as one might expect patriarchal and anti-feminist, yet even here there are contradictions and tensions, Hamas has many women MPs: http://www.greenleft.org.au/2006/659/7252
Hamas was also initially supported by Israel to derail the then leading resistance organisation, the PLO, anyone who thinks that Hamas are stooges of Israel today is on another planet.
We should criticise the politics of Hamas, just as socialists would be critical of nationalist movements such as Irish nationalism in the North of Ireland (that while a genuine expression of the oppression of Catholics could only succeed by attempting to forge unity with Protestant workers by attacking Tories - North & South, rather than appealing to a romanticised notion of the Irish republic), this should be on the basis of a concrete analysis of concrete conditions, not Durruti's weird tripping.
We should adopt two key principles, unconditional support for the right of the oppressed to resist with critical support for their struggle
Consider if we took the same approach elsewhere:
For example, somebody selling the Morning Star on a demo isn't necessarily gonna icepick a trotskyist, support gulags in Britain and want to turn Britain into a totalitarian one-party state despite their connections with an organisation that has strong origins in Stalinism. And despite historically the British Communist Party having links with Stalnist regimes, and despite criticisms of the political orientation of British communism, one can still recognise that their were many fine militants who fought for working class emancipation and people who joined the Communist Party to fight for socialism.
As I stated earlier, would I judge Plaid Cymru today (many of whose activists are committed anti-fascists) on the basis that some of its founders in the 1930s were fellow travellers of the European radical right? Plaid as a modern political party has also shifted ideology in order to appeal to a wider base in Wales beyond it's welsh speaking core vote, for example, in South Wales they have adopted old-Labour rhetoric. They initially argued for the abolition of the English language in Wales, but they recognised that this was not going to connect with the majority of people in Wales who don't speak Welsh etc.
For example, despite it's Islamist background Hamas in 2005 supported the candidature of a Christian Woman as Mayor of Ramallah (just as they backed a Christian to become mayor of Bethlehem) who was an activist in the secular leftist PFLP, it also invited PFLP into government when it won the elections (an offer PFLP rejected). If Hamas was as monolithic as Durruti claims (the Palestinian stooges of Sudan etc.) it would be inconceivable that it would invite a party like the PFLP that with strong roots among Palestinian Christians and a secular leftist orientation into power.
Yes, Durruti, Hamas supported the candidature of a secular marxist woman from a christian background to become Mayor of Palestine's political capital Ramallah.
As a modern political party seeking to be electable, despite its islamist ideology, Hamas recognises that most Palestinians don't support the Islamisation of Palestine and adjust their policies (just as I noted how nationalism in Wales had changed in response to the political context it operates within).
Hamas' religious leaders are also as one might expect patriarchal and anti-feminist, yet even here there are contradictions and tensions, Hamas has many women MPs: http://www.greenleft.org.au/2006/659/7252
Hamas was also initially supported by Israel to derail the then leading resistance organisation, the PLO, anyone who thinks that Hamas are stooges of Israel today is on another planet.
We should criticise the politics of Hamas, just as socialists would be critical of nationalist movements such as Irish nationalism in the North of Ireland (that while a genuine expression of the oppression of Catholics could only succeed by attempting to forge unity with Protestant workers by attacking Tories - North & South, rather than appealing to a romanticised notion of the Irish republic), this should be on the basis of a concrete analysis of concrete conditions, not Durruti's weird tripping.
We should adopt two key principles, unconditional support for the right of the oppressed to resist with critical support for their struggle
rioted
redundant
Excellent!
A noble attempt to overcome dogma with rationality. Doomed to failure unfortunately.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Good post.
Thirded.
Doomed to failure unfortunately.
'Fraid so.
For where would the defenders of the state of Israel - or the state itself - be without their figments of an evil so pure that it must be right to dismember 300 children for the heinous crime of being imprisoned on the same tiny patch of sand as its invented demons?
udo actually this is pretty good .. but you are saying this with an understanding of where hamas has come from AND could go back to / or exhibit IF it got more power .. i don't like the last sentance though .. too dogmatic .. the key thing though as always is to change the balance of power where YOU live
all authoritarians have evil to frighten people ... the zionists are NOT unique in this .. and israel really does have a past that allows for fear
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
I think he is, though he would deny it...even though the evidence is there in black and white. He's a troll and not a particularly good one either.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
You keep using the word "dogmatic" like some holy invocation to remove 'evil' spirits. Your post is all over the shop.
winjer
holocene death beat
When don't the oppressed have a right to resist?
Udo Erasmus
Well-Known Member
I think the first thing to recognise is that oppressed people resist. Unfortunately, the resistance doesn't always take the ideal form, nevertheless we should concentrate our fire on the oppressors and recognise the right of the oppressed to resist.
For example, in Iraq I wish that the resistance was led by the secular left, unfortunately because the biggest secular left group in Iraq - the CP - collaborated both with Saddam and the current occupation, the left is discredited, and for other reasons the resistance has taken a religious focus. Nevertheless, I recognise the right of people in Iraq under the heel of occupation to resist the British and American army. To say, we refuse to support the thousands of people who are resisting imperialism because we disagree with the politics of the leadership would be absurd, or to counterpose the tiny leftist groups to these mass movements that are giving imperialism a hardtime would be wrongheaded.
In the North of Ireland, the repression unleashed against the Irish Civil Rights movement meant that many young people looked towards an armed struggle led by the IRA as the only route forward. We can clearly see that this was a road to nowhere, but in dealing with the issues, it would be completely wrongheaded to equate the British State and the IRA and not acknowledge the historical reasons why the resistance to oppression had taken this form.
In Vietnam, the resistance was led by stalinists who murdered trotskyists, yet everyone recognised that the guerilla were the only force that stood between uncle sam and the vietnamese people.
In Britain, we mustn't get sidetracked into condemning Hamas, but rather attacking the record of our government who calls for Hamas to be disarmed as part of a ceasefire agreement while relentlessly arming Israel to the teeth.
But there is a question how alongside supporting the concrete resistance of the oppressed in Palestine, how we can build solidarity with a progressive left in the region & encourage its development.
I had a long conversation with a Palestinian leftist last night, who was telling me of his experiences, he recognised why Hamas had come to power (off the back of the political degeneration of Fatah) and how their votes represented the Palestinians desire not to submit to the occupation. On the other hand, he was quite keen to find ways that the west could solidarise and encourage the building of a non-stalinist secular left.
He spoke of his early experience with Hamas, how when they emerged they burnt down libraries run by the communist party, the introduction of a religious discourse into Palestinian politics, there early attacks on the left etc. their slowness to get involved in the first intifada. But also of their strength with the collapse of the soviet union, they adopted a discourse 'We have the entire Muslim nations behind us' and with the PLO getting locked into collaboration with imperialism through the peace process, they surged to power.
he explained how Hamas could run social welfare programmes off the backs of funding from Muslim regimes, but the Left didn't have such backing. (maybe he suggested Chavez and Morales could help out)
I think we should think about ways we can build up links with the Palestinian left, the initiative of the British TUC in setting up fundraising for Gaza that channels the aid through Palestinian trade unions is positive step:
For example, in Iraq I wish that the resistance was led by the secular left, unfortunately because the biggest secular left group in Iraq - the CP - collaborated both with Saddam and the current occupation, the left is discredited, and for other reasons the resistance has taken a religious focus. Nevertheless, I recognise the right of people in Iraq under the heel of occupation to resist the British and American army. To say, we refuse to support the thousands of people who are resisting imperialism because we disagree with the politics of the leadership would be absurd, or to counterpose the tiny leftist groups to these mass movements that are giving imperialism a hardtime would be wrongheaded.
In the North of Ireland, the repression unleashed against the Irish Civil Rights movement meant that many young people looked towards an armed struggle led by the IRA as the only route forward. We can clearly see that this was a road to nowhere, but in dealing with the issues, it would be completely wrongheaded to equate the British State and the IRA and not acknowledge the historical reasons why the resistance to oppression had taken this form.
In Vietnam, the resistance was led by stalinists who murdered trotskyists, yet everyone recognised that the guerilla were the only force that stood between uncle sam and the vietnamese people.
In Britain, we mustn't get sidetracked into condemning Hamas, but rather attacking the record of our government who calls for Hamas to be disarmed as part of a ceasefire agreement while relentlessly arming Israel to the teeth.
But there is a question how alongside supporting the concrete resistance of the oppressed in Palestine, how we can build solidarity with a progressive left in the region & encourage its development.
I had a long conversation with a Palestinian leftist last night, who was telling me of his experiences, he recognised why Hamas had come to power (off the back of the political degeneration of Fatah) and how their votes represented the Palestinians desire not to submit to the occupation. On the other hand, he was quite keen to find ways that the west could solidarise and encourage the building of a non-stalinist secular left.
He spoke of his early experience with Hamas, how when they emerged they burnt down libraries run by the communist party, the introduction of a religious discourse into Palestinian politics, there early attacks on the left etc. their slowness to get involved in the first intifada. But also of their strength with the collapse of the soviet union, they adopted a discourse 'We have the entire Muslim nations behind us' and with the PLO getting locked into collaboration with imperialism through the peace process, they surged to power.
he explained how Hamas could run social welfare programmes off the backs of funding from Muslim regimes, but the Left didn't have such backing. (maybe he suggested Chavez and Morales could help out)
I think we should think about ways we can build up links with the Palestinian left, the initiative of the British TUC in setting up fundraising for Gaza that channels the aid through Palestinian trade unions is positive step:
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
And here's the nub.
US and UK arms continue to flow into Israel and those arms are being used to kill the people of Gaza. I, like others on this thread, have a problem with Hamas but that is not a reason in itself to abandon the Palestinian people to the Israeli killing machine and further repression.
US and UK arms continue to flow into Israel and those arms are being used to kill the people of Gaza. I, like others on this thread, have a problem with Hamas but that is not a reason in itself to abandon the Palestinian people to the Israeli killing machine and further repression.
good posts udo
but i think for me there are 2 problems with your position
1) is that your or the lefts positions get very formulaic it is just NOT that simple .. so the NI solidarity got very confused with who to actually support .. stickies, irps or ra .. the same with SA .. as i am sure you are aware City AA split from AA .. so do we support the BIGGEST group .. as they would seem to be the legitimate representatives .. when they are reactionary? or do we support groups that are politically far more progressive .. persoanlly i think that IF we simply want to do solidairty we should support those who are being progressive
2) ultimatly i do think that this so called international solidarity is pretty well useless .. the way things are changed is by forcing changes politically on the govts at home .. i think that formulaic and dogmatic responses do not help us create a mass movement at home
the thing is it makes NO odds whether we 'support' 'the resisitance ' in iraq OR 'hamas' or whoever as it is meaningless .. it has no affect .. the key issue is how these issues effect our creating a mass movement at home
and so i utterly agree with your conclusion .. but that WILL bring us into conflict with the Hamas hegemony
didn't get to the demo in Trafalgar square today but reports of a mini riot .. hundreds of riot cops and horses everywhere in the WE at 6ish .. but attended the picket in High St Ken .. couple of hundred and police being pretty full on .. looks like the kids tried to do a small shop!
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Bullshitter.
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