David Ervine dies
- Thread starter guinnessdrinker
- Start date
Fullyplumped
in a personal capacity
Welcome to U75, STP. It would be a boon and a blessing if you would give bit of context and background on these people. I have an idea who Mr Hutchinson is, but who is Ms. Purvis?STP said:
Thanks. Dawn Purvis is Chairwoman of the PUP and a member of the policing board. She's intelligent, likeable and would do a good job. On the minus side she'll have no influence over the UVF whatsoever. But to be honest it doesnt really matter who's the next PUP leader. A pro-GFA Unionist party's got no chance in the current climate.Fullyplumped said:
Idris2002
Stay Alive in '25
revol68 said:
Surely you mean the utter lack of even the most basic social skills? G-d knows I'm not the greatest in that department myself, but these guys . . .
revol68 said:
I had a chat with Davy Carlin one night (long time Belfast SWPer, now left the party) and it was like talking to a human computer.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
Don't you and Mr Carlin now share an organisation, revol?
Fisher_Gate
Active Member
Nigel Irritable said:
Is it not true that the SP put Billy Hutchinson/PUP on its platform and toured it around in the name of the SP? If that's not true, then I apologise - if it is true, then I think you've got more explaining to do about what you intended that would achieve.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
Fisher_Gate said:
It is true that Billy Hutchinson appeared on a couple of platforms organised by the Socialist Party. He did so in the name of his own organisation, the PUP. The occasions which spring to mind included a debate between the SP, PUP and Sinn Fein on the way forward in the North. A Socialist Party speaker also appeared on the same Scottish Socialist Party organised platform as him in Scotland. As previously noted the IRSP and Sinn Fein speakers have also shared platforms with the PUP.
Which has nothing to do with the two quotes you posted, both of which centred on outright falsehoods. The first quote claimed that Militant Labour had split into seperate organisations on each side of the border, which was completely untrue. The second claimed that the Socialist Party described the PUP as socialists which is also completely untrue.
Don't worry though. I never expected you to have the decency or political honesty to apologise when you are caught peddling falsehoods.
Fisher_Gate
Active Member
Nigel Irritable said:
Well it's on record on the internet that you said the PUP were moving 'in a socialist direction', 'moved against the capitalist' and that this was 'one of the most significant developments of the period'. Despite the semantics, I think that confirms the political analysis of the piece, together with your own confirmation that the SP placed the PUP on its platform, which given the sectarianism of your current towards other ostensibly similar left wing organisations, must represent something significant.
And as for not splitting the section, it may be formally true to say the SP is a single 'party', but in practice you present it as two quite distinct forms. Take the CWI website for example, there is no link for 'Ireland' - there are seperate links for 'Ireland (North)' and 'Ireland (South)' (sic). The one for 'Ireland (South)' purports to be 'the' Socialist Party yet has a statement - 'About Us' - in which the final three paragraphs talk about TDs, ie exclusively about the Irish Republic. There is a seperate link saying 'Northern Ireland' implying that the site doesn't deal with that part of Ireland. [The links to 'Northern Ireland' and 'Ireland (North)' do not work by the way]. I think it is pretty clear that organisationally you present the SP as two seperate though linked entities, which is what I think the piece was referring to. My questioning of the piece would be maybe 'what is new'? I have a pamphlet from the 1980s from the Labour and Trade Union Group, a Militant front organisation, calling for a Northern Ireland Labour Party, a unionist policy, if ever there was one.
dennisr
the acceptable face
durruti02 said:
yep - the SP in NI gave them a platform at public meetings when the PUP initially moved in a class direction. Then again so did Shin Fein (with a full page interview in thier paper at the time) but that is not the same as working with the PUP itself. The SPs aim would have been to build links with left leaning activists within both the protestant and catholic communities - the public meetings included joint platforms with Shin Fein and others as well as PUP reps.
The SP were attacked for doing so as so-called apologists for 'loyalist /fascists' but by people who either had very little understanding of the actual situation in NI at the time (and were pretty irrelevant to that situation in any case) and/or thought they should spend their time cheer-leading the republicans uncritically rather than flagging up any class content regardless of which 'side' of the working class community in NI this was coming from.
The chink in the artificial loyalist 'unity' (that the then left moving PUP expressed - conciously or not) and the potential of/for the splitting along class lines of this reactionary bloc was an important one.
I am interested by the level of sympathy Irvines death has raised here. He seems to me to have been a fella who despite all the historical baggage, genuinely tried to work out why the community he felt part of was in the shite it was (and still is). I don't imagine it is that easy to face up, at least partially, to the role the loyalist leaders have played in keeping that community underfoot.
Fisher_Gate
Active Member
dennisr said:
The word 'socialist' was used by the SP and still appears on its website, not 'class' which has an altogether different meaning.
cemertyone
Well-Known Member
STP said:
Was that why when he was caught with a car full of explosives...on his way to bomb a communitty centre no less...he told all and sundre he was a " Solider of Ulster".....only for Gusty Spence to recall later that when he walked into the " kesh" and Spence asked him why he was there he was stunned into silence because even he did not know why????.
Oh and haven`t you heard of Wolfie Tone i believe he was an " Ulster protestant" to be perhaps not of the right policital hugh for your liking......
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
Fisher_Gate said:
Now look at you squirming desperately to avoid admitting that you were peddling lies.
There was a brief aside in an article which said that when the PUP first formed they moved "in a socialist direction". Not that they were socialists, not even that they were currently moving in that direction but that their early behaviour was to shift from traditional Loyalist conservatism by expressing rudimentary class arguments. That was, factually, motion "in a socialist direction". It was also pretty significant at the time, indicating as it did a political ferment amongst parts of the Protestant working class.
Once more, the Socialist Party never described the PUP as socialists. Never. Not once. You know this. I know this. The do-nothing semi retired left-nationalist sectlet you borrowed the lie from also know this.
Fisher_Gate said:
This kind of thing actually makes me doubt your sanity. Certainly you know little or nothing about the Socialist Party in Ireland and who we have allowed onto platforms. Practically everyone who has ever expressed an interest in being on one from a former Fine Gael Taoiseach through the Provos to pretty much every organisation on the left. You name them, the SWP, the Workers Party, independent leftists, the anarchists, they've all been on platforms we organised.
As for the PUP, they have as I stated before been on platforms with Sinn Fein many more times than they ever were with the Socialist Party. They've been on platforms with the Scottish Socialist Party and the IRSP and, I believe, the SWP. So fucking what? Are you going to smear them as crypto-Orangemen too?
Fisher_Gate said:
Again your ignorance is quite breathtaking, which as usual doesn't stop you from mouthing off.
The Socialist Party in Ireland is one organisation and has always been one organisation. Its leadership bodies are all-island. It has one national conference. It has one paper covering the North and South and one magazine covering the North and South. It has one youth section covering the North and South. This has never changed - it has always been our structure.
As I've said twice now, you posted two quotes. Each of those quotes was centred on a completely false claim. You've had that pointed out to you, but predictably instead of simply admitting that you were wrong you squirm and try to throw more mud. Exactly the kind of contemptable behaviour I would expect from you.
Nigel
For A Degenerates' Workers State
I Once ended up standing next to him in a pub in Belfast & was suprised to see how small in stature he was. Later he was having his picture taken with the SDLP.
I think you have to give him his due, for all of his dodgieness he had good basic working class instincts.
For SP members: What are your attitudes towards the NILP.
They seemed the best lot within the Protestant Working Class, quite matey with Eamon McCanns lot at Sandinos in Derry.
I think you have to give him his due, for all of his dodgieness he had good basic working class instincts.
For SP members: What are your attitudes towards the NILP.
They seemed the best lot within the Protestant Working Class, quite matey with Eamon McCanns lot at Sandinos in Derry.
N_igma
Epistemic nuisance
cemertyone said:
Actually..as a Republican myself, Ervine was going to a pub for the bombing (tit for tat killings were a common occurance until the mid 90's) as a result of the 1972 Belfast bombings by the IRA. Wolfe Tone was a Dublin Protestant who along with Ulster Presbyterians were fighting against the Protestant (Anglican) Ascendancy. It wasn't until the Act of Union a few years later until Protestants in Ireland pledged their alleigance to the British throne. It always surprises me when Protestants say "go back to ur own country" to Catholics. They fought with us against the British. The irony escapes me, one of the only colonies left where people actually want to belong to the Empire, I believe it should be broke up and the single nations can excerise their own sovereignty.
Nigel
For A Degenerates' Workers State
http://www. ulsternation.org.uk/index.html
Quite interesting analysis from Baldy & his mates in the Third Way.
Quite interesting analysis from Baldy & his mates in the Third Way.
Nigel
For A Degenerates' Workers State
PatrickHarringt
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 28
Bob Crow - Midwife to Solidarity
Quote:
Originally Posted by Divisive Cotton
Well as one that was kicked out under his reign it looks like you won't be back in for some time to come.
Fortunately I have many friends there.
I no longer work in the Railway industry so membership of the RMT would not be of any benefit to me. I am a member of Solidarity (www.solidaritytradeunion.org) and I like to think of Bob as one of the Midwives of this organisation. Had he not expelled me from the RMT it is unlikely it would ever have been formed.
Here's one post advertising in my opinion is a fascist dynamic which no-one has picked up upon.
If these fuckwits are going to continusley try to put their bigoted opinions on this board. Then why not have it out with them?
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 28
Bob Crow - Midwife to Solidarity
Quote:
Originally Posted by Divisive Cotton
Well as one that was kicked out under his reign it looks like you won't be back in for some time to come.
Fortunately I have many friends there.
I no longer work in the Railway industry so membership of the RMT would not be of any benefit to me. I am a member of Solidarity (www.solidaritytradeunion.org) and I like to think of Bob as one of the Midwives of this organisation. Had he not expelled me from the RMT it is unlikely it would ever have been formed.
Here's one post advertising in my opinion is a fascist dynamic which no-one has picked up upon.
If these fuckwits are going to continusley try to put their bigoted opinions on this board. Then why not have it out with them?
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